RonCT

I remember that he was Solo, so that must mean Yellow S or White. He wasn't passing, he was all alone at the proper track-out which is right there at the curbing on the right (where the pond formed). I run in Black and we had the same situation, though I knew what to do about it. That's where a little more experience and understanding of physics and vehicle dynamics comes into play. My point being that for a track to experiment with their systems during a DE is not a very good idea. Had they tested their water system the day before, after the event ended, etc. -- they would have found the break, never flooded the track, and our 996 friend would have never crashed.

Gary R.

You sure Ron? I had heard the same story the other poster did, that he executed a pass and drove straight into the water. It wasn't the first lap either so he should have seen it / known of it's presence by then you would think. All I remember is the 1st time I saw it was the first I had heard of it and we should have been warned ahead of time.. earlier in the day it wasn't there, then it just "appeared"!

RonCT

It was early spring, so my memory may not be correct. But whether there was a pass or not, being on the right side at the curb is correct, so I suppose it's irrelevant if he passed or not (I didn't think he did). It did "just appear" and on one lap I had no choice but to blow through it because I did just pass somebody and couldn't shift left to avoid the pond if I wanted to. Blew threw it, held on while the car tried to pull right, and once I hit pavement again continued on. I feel for the guy behind me that just got passed because his car got covered in muddy water (including his interior through the open window).

SundayDriver

Yes, I am who you think, so I do have personal knowledge about BW. Now I am not an expert track inspector, so I don't really know the criteria, but clearly it is not a lack of walls that you can hit. Walls are a necessary part of most racetracks and there seem to be standards about walls.

BTW - These standards change over time as we, as a sport, learn more. I think the issue around that wall is whether something can reasonably be done, without actually making the whole environment more dangerous, and can it be done within a reasonable cost. You can't remove that wall because you would expose the pit/paddock/tech to cars on track.

Anyone could argue anything, but I feel that the track's defense is that there is an inherent conflict between driver safety and spectator safety in some places and the spectators/crew/etc must come first as they did not sign on for such risks. Given that, they have used accepted practices to protect everyone as best they can. Everything else likely shifts the risk and does not necessarily lower the risk. Tire walls have a tendency to bounce cars back into traffic when they are close to the racing surface - they are not always the answer.

Again, since I am not a track inspector/expert, I am only speculating as to how the track would answer this. I don't KNOW if that speculation is accurate or way off base.

SundayDriver

I don't think it is nearly as simple as you imply. There are (were) other turns with no curbs. Racers will use all the track and then some. With the soil at BW, those spots end up with very deep ruts just off the track surface. Take the curb off that final turn and more people will drop wheels and you will have a 3-6" deep rut that may be much worse about tossing cars into the wall. Widen the turn and people will take it wider and faster to use all the track plus a bit. Rarely is anything simple when it comes to changing a racetrack.

Have you ever, personally gone to the track management and asked them that question?

aeshultz

Mark;
Back to the original example of Joey Hand / Mid-Ohio; there is a track that is "certified" and "inspected" by ALMS, IRL, Grand-Am, SCCA, PCA, BMWCCA, and they still managed to build a ski-jump that launched a car into multiple somersults.
So the bottom line for me is: "I hope someone smarter than me has looked at this, but it's still my @ss on the line."
Alan

kurt M

How can any regular driver say the "buck stops here" and rely on their own recon and feelings as to the safety of the track at hand. That’s the same as defending yourself in a complex high risk court case rather than relying on a lawyer. I would think that this is the kind of stuff that takes study and calculation by persons learned in the science of crash physics and track design. The infield camera mount is an example. Who would have seen that and said "That's not safe and I'm not driving the track until it gets moved or a tire wall is built in front of it"? Someone understood that it could get hit or they would not have bothered to wrap it in cement walls. They should have added tires or made the walls angled to direction of travel to reduce the risk. As is shown in the tragic example of the CGT crash, any change needs to be thought out and thought out by people that know the details of track, crash and vehicle physics. I bet from the ground the wall that was moved for the play area did not look as dangerous and stupid as it does from the air.

"The buck stops here" when you decide to drive the track is only part of it. It is up to the track designers and owners to stay on top of advancements in design and safety systems. This is no different than drivers doing the same with their in car safety systems. How many people had a modern head and neck system 10 years ago? How many tracks were made form the ground up as they are now? I bet that many if not most tracks were laid out by some guys that wanted to race and had some land and a little money. The track was built and during use problems that were not thought of were exposed. Correcting the problems and improving the track is key. Don’t get me wrong I am firmly in the ”What part of racing or driving fast on a race track did you think was inherently safe?” camp but this does not mean that the track owners can stay in the early days of racing as far as safety is concerened or make unwise changes.

There seems to be an underlying assumption that neophyte drivers are more likely to have violent crashes. The data I saw for some years of one regions DE events told otherwise. The instructor groups were more likely to have real crashes. I think this is something that needs more study. Who is crashing in DE?


Good thread.

Willard Bridgham 3

Larry's not easy, Bush is easy:

SundayDriver

I think these go together to make some good points. It IS up to each of us to decide if we accept the risk, however, most of us (including me) are not qualified to say if all the safety risks have been addressed.

There are some groups that inspect and approve tracks before they will race there. How many people here pay ANY attention to whether their tracks (and configs) have been inspected and approved? Was CA Speedway inspected for the configuration in question?

This is dangerous stuff. I think that the CGT incident shows how many people and groups let down their guard in regards to safety. Each of us, especially DE participants, should be far more aggressive about safety and the systems that are not in place to help mitigate risks. Systems break down, as in the case of the Joey Hand accident, but it does not mean the system is worthless.

BTW - No one has answered my question as to whether PCA, BMWCCA or any DE groups do any track inspection and approval. I would think that if you run with these groups, this is an important question. If you do not insist on best safety processes available, who is going to do it for you?

gbaker

And--to continue the rhetorical--who is going to do it for you if you do insist?

gbaker

Yeah, that's why I said a professional should check the track at the design stage. After that you are on your own.

SundayDriver

I know the answer for myself. I run with SCCA on tracks they have inspected. No, it is not perfect but I am willing to accept that level of risk. I have seen too many tracks make arbitrary changes without thinking through the safety and, in my experience, SCCA does an acceptable job of dealing with this.

I stopped instructing at DE's because the organizers (in general for the one in the area where I lived) did not take the steps to help ensure the cars I got into were safe. I found bad harness installs, etc. Organizers did not do much about this nor did they have processes to address this adequately. That made an unacceptable risk level for me.

chrisp

This may be worthy of its own thread....

Who has left a track or stopped driving because of an unsafe situation?

Would any of you have left Cal Speedway that day if you got out there and noticed that wall or the inherently dangerous pit out and blend line situation?

DJF1

I think the matter is tri-fold.
1. As a driver, it is your responsibility to decide if you are going to run at which track. If you feel the track is not really safe for your standards then vote with your wallet and dont drive.
2. In this day and age, taking from the example of F1, where there is a very strong standard and vocal reactions from the drivers when it comes to track safety, it is also the responsibility of the sanctioning body to set standards and run events only at the tracks where they feel the standards are met or exceeded when it comes to track design and condition overall. I really dont see any reason why a sanctioning body would support a track that does not meet modern safety standards. I feel some times that when people criticize a track design for its safety, these people are viewed as "wimps". For me there is nothing heroic about running at a track where you have more changes than not to get hurt because of the design or condition of the track. And to these people I ask, do F1 drivers seem to be wimps?
3. The track owners themselves. It is also their responsibility to put money back on the track, update the safety standards regularly and maintain it correctly.

Veloce Raptor

I have.

When I used to instruct for a group that I no longer instruct for (not PCA or BMW Club), one time the organizer combined the instructor & the top student run group (which was filled with a lot of high HP yahoos). These assclowns saw it as some sort of "race" to prove themselves to the instructors. It was so unsafe that I pulled in & parked my car.