trackjunky

Compliment accepted.

M758

Not drunk at all, and it really does happen. The 951 can be on R-tires with a chip.

What I did not say however is that the 951 has stock suspension and my 944 is stripped 2450lbs with solid suspension. The other issue is 951 is out of gearing band being either too low for 3rd gear or must slow way the heck down for 2nd. Helps to that peak speed on the track was only 100 to 110 for even the fast cars.

bobt993

I agree TD, but T5 is a spinners corner for a novice to learn in so I avoid dat one. (It is also a very short hard left hand corner which supports TB in tight radius turns).

himself

What about transitioning from brake and onto the gas? Is this a heavy foot exercise or is it a feather the throttle application? I'm sure it depends on the actual corner, but which will keep a novice out of trouble most often?

I few more Q's: Is this a two step process: foot off the brake -> move to gas? Or a one step: heel toe -> slide off brake to throttle? Heck, is anyone left foot braking at this point?

My concern is that a spin inevitable if you take too long moving your foot from brake to gas when trail braking? I know that you'll bumble-bee if you lift in a corner, but what about the split second your foot is moving from brake to gas??

-td

TD in DC

My understanding is that if you do it right, you will not be able to get back on full throttle immediately without spinning. It should be a smooth transition from heavier to lesser braking to light throttle to full throttle.

You don't take long to move your foot from the brake to the throttle, but if you are near the limit you can't be a brute about the transition either.

The key is to have good timing and smooth inputs, which is why trailbraking takes practice, practice, practice . . .

trackjunky

When students ride with me they are amazed at the transition made from gas to brake and brake to gas. If your car is at the limit, any abrupt changes will exceed grip levels

I talk my way around the track with them in the right seat explaining to them the amount of pressure I am using. I use 1>10 as an example with 10 being threshold or just short of lock up. I'll say things like "I lift gently here, covering the brake.......squeezing to a 8 then backing off to a 4. Holding the 4......now back to the gas and sqeeeeeeeeze."

Of course I usually do this after I get sick from whiplash in their car.

Visualize driving on ice and how smooth you would need to be. It's not quite this extreme but you get the picture. Carrying speed THROUGH corners is the toughest thing for people to learn.

38D

Let's take Road America, since I'm assuming you've driven it being from Chicago (here's my first time to Road America). Which tunrs do you think are good trail braking turns? I would say it nearly all except 7, the carosel and under the billy mitchel bridge. Some of those turns are "tight", no?

bobt993

Same at the bottom of the chute at Summit Colin (which TD mentioned). You get jammed into a very early apex at T5 by carrying tons of speed down the chute. Fast line is to toss the entrance, but you need to get left and the speed is 110 to maybe 40mph. If you don't trail hard, the car plows to track right blowing yet another turn into T6.

smackboy1

This is somewhat confusing to me. My only time on a track was at a Skip Barber HPDE where they taught trail braking at the start. I read Going Faster and Carl Lopez talking about 2 different ways to trail brake. The Skippy philosophy is to teach novices like me trail braking and rotating the car in the turn with the brakes and throttle right from the start, rather than teaching straight line only braking and then having to unlearn that later. So when I go attend DEs with PCA, SCDA, NASA or other organizations do they all have their own organization wide philosophies about how to teach trail braking or is it up to individual instructors how they do it? As soon as I get my roll bar in I'm off to DEs. Is it going to be confusing getting inconsistent instruction?

BostonDMD

YES!

Paddy

Some great info here guys. I have been playing around w/ trail braking in the 993 at VIR. I've been practicing on turn 1 and started on turn 12. I've spun twice and went straight off once at turn 1. I'll master TB in a 911 one of these days. 7 days to go before I can try again

Any of you guys going to the Chin event at VIR next week?

LVDell

Turn one is good for TB'ing. If you get the stones (trust me it took a long time for me) TB'ing at the double apex for oak tree (T11 and T12). I have overcooked the TB a couple times and let's just say that the corner work had a priceless look on his face But I am able to carry ALOT of speed into T11 with a TB all the way to just before turn-in at T12. I learned this line and TB from another friend I run with that got instruction from David Muray.

2 other great places to TB for good rotation is entering the top of the rollercoaster (14 & 14a) and then power all the way to the entrance of hogpen where I TB all the way through T16 and T17 and on the gas right before the compression.

ps. hopefully I will be at the Chin event. I just got an email from them requesting my expereince (driving and instructing) as they might have an opening for me.

kurt M

End of the back straight at VIR just begs for trail braking. This is where I like introduce it to students that don't yet use it but are ready to work on it. (Real good Green to middle Blue) It feels natural to trail brake there and it you blow it you can open the wheel up and slow down. This blows the entrence to the roller coaster but the car stays on track,the smoke stays in the tires and the poo in the humans.

TheOtherEric

I don't see where you're going with that, Mr. Humble . I'm not arguing against Tbraking, I'm just saying: (1) the time spent trail braking will be highest on high-radius corners like decreasing radius corners, (2) TB will be less dramatic for the driver in those conditions, and (3) for those reasons, somebody learning TB'ing should focus on those types of corners first. This is pretty obvious stuff.

Wouldn't you agree that some corners are better than others to learn & implement trail braking? That was the OP's question.

BrandonH

Somewhere in the literature (maybe Going Faster? or Ross Bentley?) Mario Andretti is asked for one or two of the "secrets" he's evolved over the course of his experience. He politely responds that any real "secrets" he has accumulated are for the benefit of his sons (Marco not born yet!) but then adds cryptically: "However, a lot of people think brakes are for stopping the car..." Come to think of it this must've been in one of the Speed Secret Books, since Bentley places huge emphasis on left-foot braking... Which brings me to my main point; this thread went to post #34 before anyone mentioned left-foot braking (a new record?)

I think what Mario was suggesting, and what Ross Bentley certainly believes, is that driving ultimately involves an ongoing ballet performance using all three pedals, a performance you can't master until you are fluent with both left foot braking and heel/toe. 'Trail braking' is a pedagogical term Mark Donahue introduced to explain the concept, but ultimately it's about shifting the car's weight around to the tire that needs it, when it needs it.

One of the greatest illustrations: Walter Rohl in Group B, see the dance here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HjXXUyQhPE (among the many dazzling lessons, watch how he uses the dead pedal; like a percussionist timing his entrance!)

So ditto to all the advice on mechanics and technique that have been related thus far, but I'd also encourage anyone to left-foot brake your street car, and heel-and-toe every downshift. It's cheap and easy practice you can do every day in preparation for developing these skills on the track. I started 10 years ago and will never approximate Walter, but at least the techniques now feel 'normal.'