Help transitioning to Trail Braking
06-25-2007, 05:24 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Here's the vid that Jim references of me chasing Scotto: http://caicos.globat.com/~gtc-motors...g%20Scotto.mpg
The key to trail braking is that you need to decrease the pedal pressure the deeper you are in thr turn.the deeper you are into the turn.
And I don't agree with the tighter the turn, the less useful it is to trail brake. In fact David Murry told me "the longer the turn, the more you should trail brake". T8, 9, 10 and 14 look like the turns where trail braking would be key.
The key to trail braking is that you need to decrease the pedal pressure the deeper you are in thr turn.the deeper you are into the turn.
And I don't agree with the tighter the turn, the less useful it is to trail brake. In fact David Murry told me "the longer the turn, the more you should trail brake". T8, 9, 10 and 14 look like the turns where trail braking would be key.
06-25-2007, 05:25 PM
#17
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TD: no, no. You misunderstand me.
My point is that you must first understand which corners are the most important ones on the track to carry speed through as they lead onto long straights. Beginning to trailbrake here (as a beginner) may actually lead to slower times.
My point is not that trailbraking is unnecessary. I am speaking to the point of the thread: Trailbraking for Beginners.
I use trailbraking often and where needed. Of course I lie about how I do it and where.
My point is that you must first understand which corners are the most important ones on the track to carry speed through as they lead onto long straights. Beginning to trailbrake here (as a beginner) may actually lead to slower times.
My point is not that trailbraking is unnecessary. I am speaking to the point of the thread: Trailbraking for Beginners.
I use trailbraking often and where needed. Of course I lie about how I do it and where.
06-25-2007, 05:27 PM
#18
Originally Posted by trackjunky
TD: no, no. You misunderstand me.
My point is that you must first understand which corners are the most important ones on the track to carry speed through as they lead onto long straights. Beginning to trailbrake here (as a beginner) may actually lead to slower times.
My point is not that trailbraking is unnecessary. I am speaking to the point of the thread: Trailbraking for Beginners.
I use trailbraking often and where needed. Of course I lie about how I do it and where.
My point is that you must first understand which corners are the most important ones on the track to carry speed through as they lead onto long straights. Beginning to trailbrake here (as a beginner) may actually lead to slower times.
My point is not that trailbraking is unnecessary. I am speaking to the point of the thread: Trailbraking for Beginners.
I use trailbraking often and where needed. Of course I lie about how I do it and where.
(actually, I am not fast enough yet that it matters whether I lie or not . . . ) 
06-25-2007, 05:46 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by 38D
..And I don't agree with the tighter the turn, the less useful it is to trail brake. ...
OTOH, take a decreasing radius corner, like T10 or T12. The trail brake zone is long, so the additional speed carried here makes more difference to lap times. And it's a much better place to learn since it won't be so hectic.
* Note- by "tight" I meant "radius", not "degrees" like 90 or 180 or whatever.
Last edited by TheOtherEric; 06-25-2007 at 06:07 PM.
06-25-2007, 06:08 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
I have worked with advanced solo drivers (passing on what I was taught) on TB by using a "safe" turn to get to the apex in a hurry. (not that I am great at it, but at least they get the idea). T1 at Summit works pretty well (run-off, kitty litter etc ). Visualize the braking zone as no longer a straight line. I develop a communication of "braaaaaaaaaakkkkkeeeeee" so that braking zone is extended into the turn with the driver is lifting off the brakes during turn in as Collin explains. Usually the drill starts out with slower but more stable entry to the apex and builds from there. I like what Jim said Cervelli taught him. It really teaches a counter-intuitive skill. I would only suggest this to drovers that have solo advanced experience.
06-25-2007, 06:19 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by bobt993
I have worked with advanced solo drivers (passing on what I was taught) on TB by using a "safe" turn to get to the apex in a hurry. (not that I am great at it, but at least they get the idea). T1 at Summit works pretty well (run-off, kitty litter etc ). Visualize the braking zone as no longer a straight line. I develop a communication of "braaaaaaaaaakkkkkeeeeee" so that braking zone is extended into the turn with the driver is lifting off the brakes during turn in as Collin explains. Usually the drill starts out with slower but more stable entry to the apex and builds from there. I like what Jim said Cervelli taught him. It really teaches a counter-intuitive skill. I would only suggest this to drovers that have solo advanced experience.
If you are would it be possible to show me "literally" what you mean?
06-25-2007, 06:23 PM
#26
Originally Posted by bobt993
I have worked with advanced solo drivers (passing on what I was taught) on TB by using a "safe" turn to get to the apex in a hurry. (not that I am great at it, but at least they get the idea). T1 at Summit works pretty well (run-off, kitty litter etc ). Visualize the braking zone as no longer a straight line. I develop a communication of "braaaaaaaaaakkkkkeeeeee" so that braking zone is extended into the turn with the driver is lifting off the brakes during turn in as Collin explains. Usually the drill starts out with slower but more stable entry to the apex and builds from there. I like what Jim said Cervelli taught him. It really teaches a counter-intuitive skill. I would only suggest this to drovers that have solo advanced experience.
06-25-2007, 06:26 PM
#28
Race Director
The first place I learned to trail brake was actually a chicane. It was the highest speed braking zone on a slow track. Maybe 100 mph entry and 60 mph exit. What I learn very quickly was if I really late braked the corner I could not get the car undercontrol for right and then left chicane.
So I knew to be fast in my lowly 944 NA I needed to carry speed through that section of the track. I did that by braking sooner, more gradually and releaseing the brakes after my initial turn in. Doing that allowed me to turn the car with a faster speed. If I releaseed before I turned the car with simply no turn enough and I would have to slow down even more to make the corner.
If I released just after turn in I could carry a lot more speed. Enough that I did no bog down in 3rd gear on the way out of the corner. This gave me a TON of speed down next straight and I could easily run down 944 Turbos through here if I got it right.
The next corner I trail braked in was a 60 mph 180 looper. I started by using a double apex line and a straight line brake after the first part of the corner. This has evolved over the years to making the inital turn in with gentle lift to get the nose to bite then trail braking (appling most of my braking load) after this initale early gentle turn in with the car still side loaded.
These two corners alone are worth 5 seconds on a 1:10 to 1:15 lap just by trail braking only a little and not following a tradtional DE line.
BTW from a racer's perpsective it is down right easy to pass a driver that only straight line brakes. A strong trail braker on the other hard much muich harder. The reason is the straight line braker needs to slow down BEFORE the corner so they can be "at speed" when they turn in. A trail braker uses the first part of the corner to slow down so they can much faster at turn in using the inetia of the car to help get the car to turn and while still slowing down as needed.
So I knew to be fast in my lowly 944 NA I needed to carry speed through that section of the track. I did that by braking sooner, more gradually and releaseing the brakes after my initial turn in. Doing that allowed me to turn the car with a faster speed. If I releaseed before I turned the car with simply no turn enough and I would have to slow down even more to make the corner.
If I released just after turn in I could carry a lot more speed. Enough that I did no bog down in 3rd gear on the way out of the corner. This gave me a TON of speed down next straight and I could easily run down 944 Turbos through here if I got it right.
The next corner I trail braked in was a 60 mph 180 looper. I started by using a double apex line and a straight line brake after the first part of the corner. This has evolved over the years to making the inital turn in with gentle lift to get the nose to bite then trail braking (appling most of my braking load) after this initale early gentle turn in with the car still side loaded.
These two corners alone are worth 5 seconds on a 1:10 to 1:15 lap just by trail braking only a little and not following a tradtional DE line.
BTW from a racer's perpsective it is down right easy to pass a driver that only straight line brakes. A strong trail braker on the other hard much muich harder. The reason is the straight line braker needs to slow down BEFORE the corner so they can be "at speed" when they turn in. A trail braker uses the first part of the corner to slow down so they can much faster at turn in using the inetia of the car to help get the car to turn and while still slowing down as needed.
06-25-2007, 06:33 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by trackjunky
First of all, have you broken the track up into Most>Least important corners? If not, then this is the very first thing you should do.
Assign a "1" to the corner that leads onto the longest straight. This means that your exit speed is very important on this corner as you will carry that momentum down the straight. You would not want to trail brake here, because early throttle application is important.
Give a "2" to those turns where passing opportunities may exist or where they lead into an important part of the track for passing. You may or may not want to trail brake here.
Lastly, give a "3" to those turns that are "throw aways". Meaning, nothing really to gain here because there's not enough room to pass or it's a technical area where no real track position can be gained. Trailbraking on some of these turns (if needed) can aid in car positioning and if the speed is slow enough, you may want to try it.
Just my 1 1/2 cents.
Assign a "1" to the corner that leads onto the longest straight. This means that your exit speed is very important on this corner as you will carry that momentum down the straight. You would not want to trail brake here, because early throttle application is important.
Give a "2" to those turns where passing opportunities may exist or where they lead into an important part of the track for passing. You may or may not want to trail brake here.
Lastly, give a "3" to those turns that are "throw aways". Meaning, nothing really to gain here because there's not enough room to pass or it's a technical area where no real track position can be gained. Trailbraking on some of these turns (if needed) can aid in car positioning and if the speed is slow enough, you may want to try it.
Just my 1 1/2 cents.
Someone's been reading Alan Johnson's (now out of print) "Driving in Competition," which I recommend very highly. This is exactly the "triage" Johnson recommended when the book came out, oh, 30 years ago.
Regards to all.
06-25-2007, 06:36 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by M758
If I released just after turn in I could carry a lot more speed. Enough that I did no bog down in 3rd gear on the way out of the corner. This gave me a TON of speed down next straight and I could easily run down 944 Turbos through here if I got it right.
.
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