Anatomy of a Tankslapper
06-22-2007, 08:29 AM
#31
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I often carry some brake until shortly after turn-in but I don't consider that trailbraking. Hot and hard, like the GT3 Cup car you mentioned, that's trailbraking and that's what I was trying to do. I'm just not there yet.
06-22-2007, 09:47 PM
#33
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You're right, of course, but I think my suspension is in pretty good shape (it's been given the full Racer's Edge/Leda treatment). I'd love to blame the car for my braking problems but the fact is I just need more seat time.
06-22-2007, 11:45 PM
#34
Interesting discussion guys. TD, I agree with you that most drivers at our level do not truly trailbrake. I'm not even sure that most pros do it regularly. In talking with my mentor who is a retired pro, there is a time and a place for trailbraking. He is very good at it but does not do it everwhere. With my driving style, talent or lack therof, and my car (SP2), it just does not work for me. I have been concentrating on SIFA, slow in, fast out with better results. I try to get my braking done and grab some throttle slightly before turn in and keep adding until, hopefully, I am flat at the apex. I find my car very balanced through the corner this way. I am also of the philosophy that if you are scrubbing speed in a 944 you are giving up straight line speed so I do not lift to point the nose. I think you can do that in a 944T as you can regain the speed quickly but not in low power NA. My 2 cents from driving and racing 944's for more years than I care to admit
06-25-2007, 01:47 PM
#35
Race Director
Originally Posted by 1957 356
Keep in mind, your car needs to be set up right to be trailbraking down to the apex.
Yes,
If you are going to extract that level of performance from the car it needs to be dailed in. A go LSD is important to help do this in a 944. You can still trail brake alot in 944 with an open diff, but you do need to adjust the car to maximize the potential.
Alot of talk about optimizing the driver long before the car. In most cases that is the right thing to do. HOWEVER, when you as a driver improve enough to be looking for speed by trail braking you need to make sure the car is not way off and actually hurting you. One key still a driver needs to develop at this time is th ability to feel the car and understand how to adjust the chassis to get the balance you need to gain an extra tenth here or there. One caution is every car needs to be tweak individualy. No two cars are 100% the same so you can't even get settings from an indentically prepared car. It may be close, but still not perfect.
06-25-2007, 01:55 PM
#36
Race Director
Originally Posted by Arkadi
... I try to get my braking done and grab some throttle slightly before turn in and keep adding until, hopefully, I am flat at the apex. ...
Arkadi,
Unless this applies only to fast corners I think you are giving up ALOT of speed by slowing down only in a straight line and then getting back on gass just at turn in.
I trully believe the to be fast in a 944 you need to still be braking after turn in in most corners. There are some high speed corners where may just scrubb speed and turn, but where you brake hard I believe you need to brake hard early then let up on the brakes as you turn in and then transition from brake to gass as you either aproach the apex or get the require amount of rotation.
I believe that by slowing the car enough to turn in without the aid a front loaded car from braking application that you are forced to turn much slower. Seems to me the fact that you can get back on gas right after turn in which in my car will tend the car torward understeer tells me you are slower than you could be.
Fast corners are a bit different becase in at 944 all you may need to get rotation is a touch of brakes. Any more nose dive at high speed may cause overrotation (oversteer) and that may force you to be slower. Rear toe settings are critical when trail braking.
06-25-2007, 03:20 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
I noticed something interesting that I would like to hear your thoughts about. I overlaid the data from my fast lap with the data from my tankslapper on a variable by variable basis.
...
If I am right about my hunch, it goes to prove what I have been thinking for awhile now . . . there are times when you can really be at the limit going through a turn by braking and then accelerating, and yet the answer to going even faster is to brake even less and go through the corner even faster, because the extra speed can make it easier to balance the car with more subtle inputs (provided that you are subtle enough to pull it off).
...
...
If I am right about my hunch, it goes to prove what I have been thinking for awhile now . . . there are times when you can really be at the limit going through a turn by braking and then accelerating, and yet the answer to going even faster is to brake even less and go through the corner even faster, because the extra speed can make it easier to balance the car with more subtle inputs (provided that you are subtle enough to pull it off).
...
Thanks for the variable-by-variable data plots, much easier to analyze.
I'm no fountain of racing wisdom but I do know that rally racing is all about using Jedi-level car control skills to direct the car around difficult turns in rapidly-changing traction conditions - using that momentum you mention. Momentum - inertia - is a force that can be used for good (fling car around corner) or evil (fling car off into grass/hard things).
More blue-sky-thinking-out-loud:
Your first post mentioned "greasy tires". So in your closely-fought race you really heated your tires in the red mist - but on that tankslapper lap you were pulling high lateral Gs with them. What tires were you running? Perhaps they allow better "momentum control" when they're a bit hotter and "greasier" than you're used to.
06-25-2007, 08:36 PM
#38
The Penguin King
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
Damn, that was a Code Brown moment!!!!
Oh $hit
holy crap
I WANT MY MOMMY
Phew
I meant to do that
What's that funny smell?
Nice save Sean!
06-26-2007, 09:36 AM
#39
Burning Brakes
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TD:
Another random thought - I'm sure you've been past this before- but haven't some of your bigger "moments" involved the tail snapping out at the limit? The early incident at Summit, Turn 10 at WGI and this one. Would one approach be to dial back some (at the limit) oversteer and then learn to drive around the resulting lower speed push? Would that also help with your trail braking?
And where is ColorChange when you need him <G>?
Alan
Another random thought - I'm sure you've been past this before- but haven't some of your bigger "moments" involved the tail snapping out at the limit? The early incident at Summit, Turn 10 at WGI and this one. Would one approach be to dial back some (at the limit) oversteer and then learn to drive around the resulting lower speed push? Would that also help with your trail braking?
And where is ColorChange when you need him <G>?
Alan
06-26-2007, 05:18 PM
#40
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So my instructors were right after all
Originally Posted by M758
I trully believe the to be fast in a 944 you need to still be braking after turn in in most corners. There are some high speed corners where may just scrubb speed and turn, but where you brake hard I believe you need to brake hard early then let up on the brakes as you turn in and then transition from brake to gass as you either aproach the apex or get the require amount of rotation.
I believe that by slowing the car enough to turn in without the aid a front loaded car from braking application that you are forced to turn much slower. Seems to me the fact that you can get back on gas right after turn in which in my car will tend the car torward understeer tells me you are slower than you could be.
Fast corners are a bit different becase in at 944 all you may need to get rotation is a touch of brakes. Any more nose dive at high speed may cause overrotation (oversteer) and that may force you to be slower. Rear toe settings are critical when trail braking.
I believe that by slowing the car enough to turn in without the aid a front loaded car from braking application that you are forced to turn much slower. Seems to me the fact that you can get back on gas right after turn in which in my car will tend the car torward understeer tells me you are slower than you could be.
Fast corners are a bit different becase in at 944 all you may need to get rotation is a touch of brakes. Any more nose dive at high speed may cause overrotation (oversteer) and that may force you to be slower. Rear toe settings are critical when trail braking.
Hopefully not completely OT: in my 944 (solid suspension, moderately firm springs, Victoracers) I find it fairly easy to get the car into a controllable slide around fast corners. Am I gaining or losing speed this way?
06-26-2007, 05:47 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 1957 356
TD, I have a beauty of a tankslapper in T8 from the Glen race on video. I'll post it somewhere. Anatomy of my tankslapper - step 1) look way too long in your mirrors to see if that F car is going to dive under you - step 2) go way past your braking point - step 3)turn in hopelessly late and hot - step 3)don't put enough initial correction in and try and play catch up - step 4) go four off but keep your momentum and fish tale your way back on track giving up one spot (ironically, to that F car that had me worried to begin with)
Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuQQshfxsQ
Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuQQshfxsQ
02-14-2011, 01:11 AM
#42
7th Gear
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By the way, my laps suggests that a "Ranier Dronzek" might have been behind me when I had this tankslapper. Does anyone know Ranier? I wonder if he caught it on tape (I don't think so, but you never know).
02-14-2011, 09:00 AM
#43
Nordschleife Master
02-14-2011, 05:52 PM
#44
Mr. Excitement
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After hearing so much about this little spin both here and on a local site that TD frequented please post it. Some locals would love to see it. Date would be weekend or 2 before the first post IIRC.
02-14-2011, 06:06 PM
#45
Drifting
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