LMAO....

 

My worst instructor talked my head off. Critiquing every single move I made in the car, braking, downshifting, turning, apex, track out. I mean everything at every turn, throughout the whole day. I was so f$%@ked up listening to him and thinking about the last turn I would totally blow the next and the next. Horrible experience. I would have gone home totally scratching my head had it not been for the last run of the last day. The guy had a frog in his throat and couldn't talk, I had a good run and someone to blame beside myself.

PS, I wasn't to thrilled when my first, and so far only, off track occured while riding with an instructor. Really, I am kind of glad to have seen what it is like.

 

Hi Randy
Speaking as an instructor here - knowing how much to say can be a challenge. I like to ask my students if my quantity of instruction is working for them.
Did you tell the instructor that you were getting too much and that you might do better if there was less?
I know what you mean about too much thinking about what we did wrong and blowing the next corner, only to have the sequence repeat itself.
An instructor went off with you riding in his car? That is to be avoided.

 

Not a story but along Rick's line of thinking - I really think a lot of Instructors/Students would benefit with coming in off the track for a couple minutes after each few laps and discuss what is going on calmly and without distraction. I personally have a hell of a time talking, listening, and then doing something different on the fly and i'm sure i'm not alone. It takes very little to overload a newbie and then nothing gets accomplished except a new horror story to write here!

 

Actually, I did not know enough to think I was qualified to be asking him to teach differently. In retrospect, I would have done him a favor, as well as myself, if I would have said something. I just could not concentrate.
For me, the instructors who zeroed in on one or two skills and reenforced them over and over throughout the day or weekend really brought the idea home in a lasting way. I found that I really got it! This may not work with a 0.0 Green student.

Yes to the off.

 

Part of the job of an instructor is understanding what the student needs, and adapting their instruction style to best suit the student. Some students like a play-by-play (at least at first), some have a hard time taking too much info in while learning a new art. You just gotta understand how to balance it out. Instructors should not expect students to comment on instruction style. Rather, instructors should adapt to the student. Every student is different.

 

Speaking of talking a lot, a very nice gal (she and her husband share a 944 -- and they are on this list as a matter of fact) came to an event that I was instructing at recently. Her regular instructor had to bail early, so since my student had already gone solo, I was talked into riding with her in the afternoon. I asked her where she was at with her weekend-long experience, and she told me that her biggest problem was shifting. She had apparently been going around the entire 4.1-mile track in second gear. She had commented that compared to her Cayman, the 944 was a bit of a beast to get smooth shifting out of.

So, for much of the session, I literally told her when to shift. At first she had a real problem with downshifting, as she's not yet ready to understand heel-toe and matching rpms (but we're going to work on that in a couple of weeks -- in case she's reading this post). So the downshifts were rough, which I think is why she didn't want to upshift. But I talked her into it. Eventually, we went all the way up to fourth gear! She was doing great! Eventually, I stopped telling her when to shift. She just did it all on her own. I was amazed at how well she recieved the data. By the end of the session, I was mute, and the most input I gave her was a number of fingers near her steering wheel, indicating what gear she should be in. She did GREAT. We worked on that ONE thing during her 25-minute session. One thing at a time. By the end of the session, I think she was a little haggered from the adrenaline rush, but she was doing great. So sometimes a lot of chatter can help -- it just depends on the individual student and what they need.

Instructors . . . remember that we must talk AHEAD of the car. We need to remember to compensate our instructions to match the individual student's reaction times. I've had students who INSTANTLY do as I instruct, others lag a little bit. I must adapt to that reaction to make it a good ride for the student.

 

After canning my first instructor, the second instructor took me one step at a time. Turn in, apex, track out. Then we concentrated on getting the first three turns right. Once I had the basic line down on turns 1 – 3, we moved on to the next set of turns.

Later in the day he also had me instruct him as to what I was going to do. Brake, turn in, throttle, apex, accelerate, track out, set myself up for the next turn. This was a great help to me and to him.

Hopefully after my next July 1 DE at Lowes Motor Speedway, I’ll not need to post in this thread nor will my instructor be posting in the “Students from Hell” thread.

 

The only instructors I've ever had were not ride along. They were at a commercial racing school and my SCCA licensing schools. But, the worst one showed me his F2000 lines which didn't quite work well in a FWD sedan. Most of the track I figured out how to adjust my lines accordingly, but the Carousel at TWS remained a mystery that day. He finally just said "Do whatever works." Uh, yeah, right. Next school I got it figured out. Not a BAD instructor necessarily, but had I not had plenty of other experience to know where to adjust my lines he would have had me pretty well screwed up for the entire school.

As for the talking/no talking....

I tend to to talk a lot as an instructor if someone needs real guidance to get around the track. BUT, after a few laps I ask the student if I'm talking too much/too little/just right and adjust accordingly. With students who are getting it I often will just ride and not say much because I don't want to mess with what they are doing. Sometimes, as long as they are being safe, it's good to just observe what they do on their own. I always talk with them after the session though about my observations.

So, point being for those having instructors not saying much, if it's for a session, realize they may just be evaluating how you do on your own. If they say nothing every session, wake them up or get a new instructor.

 

Talk ahead is a key basic foundation block of instruction in real time. How much is also key. Early on in my learning I had an instructor that talked 100% of the time in the car. He talked all about the past corner as I was trying to wrap my little Green run group pea brain around the next one. This caused me to muff one after the other and only gave him even more to talk about. All day for two day and we came in he hopped right out of the car with no deconstruction of the run at all. 100% of the instruction was while I was trying to drive.

I always remembered this as it was for the most part the only time I had less that a 100% great experience during the time I was an instructed student. (I still had fun, after the 2nd run I would put the instructors communicator ear phone under my ear. I could still hear him but could also tune him out a little easer) I try and instruct some before we go on track each time and ALWAYS go over the run after and while it is fresh in both our minds. I leave my student with a tidbit to think about and a single item to focus on during the next run. "During the next run I want you to think about tightening up the braking zone for T3 with out upsetting the turn in. This is what I would like to see..."

I will go quiet during a run but will tell the student that I want to let him/her drive a while with out me yammering away and if they want insttruction during to ask. I thinkit is important to see how thy do without the hints coming through the com line. This helps keep the driver from getting used to allways having this voice there and lets me know how they would do solo. I tell them I need to make a call on the cell and that I will be back in 5 min or so.

 

My wife says that I am the worst instructor. Ever.

 

I'm reading, praying that no one brings up some goofball instructor in Texas that hasn't turned a wheel since his DE car crapped out last year.

I'll let the student know I'm watching and make the point that they'll know when they come out of a corner wrong. The difference in speed is very noticeable. I think that gives them a sense of accomplishment that they've figured something themselves.

 

Damn, not only is she cute as all get out but she is smart too!

 

I recently had a less than satisfying DE experience, but its not strictly applicable to this thread because I cannot blame the instructor. I take responsbility for my driving. I am a blue (2nd level) student with about 12 track days and have soloed at my home track. But I was driving a brand new track this weekend (TWS). It was a challenge for me figuring out 15 totally unfamiliar turns, but a valuable excercise that I know I need.

Day one, I progressed to a point where on the third session, my instructor was talking about recommending me for a solo checkout. Fourth session, for the first half anyway, I was doing well. And then I started fading mentally in the last few laps and made several errors in my line. It was very hot and I was tiring more than I realized.

Starting the next morning, he wanted me to try a different line in turn 1 than I had been running. I had been running the DE line that they show in the classroom session. We focused on this new line instead and for the life of me I just couldn't figure out where exactly he wanted me. This is a very high speed turn that has little margin for error in terms of braking. You mess up shedding speed here, you are going off big and fast, so I was already very apprehensive about this new line he wanted me to try. His goal was to get me to carry more speed through turn 2. I flubbed it up every lap. I maybe got it one time, but even though he told me I nailed it once, for the life of me, I still couldn't tell you what I'd done. When we would get out of the car and look at a track map, he would show me, but when I was coming up on it at 120 mph, it didn't look anything like the track map picture in my head! So the mood of my sessions began to deteriorate rapidly. I was frustrated with myself and started missing other corners that I had been nailing the day before. Then during our debriefing, my instructor told me that I was losing ground and he couldn't recommend me for solo (which was fine anyway, I was more concerned about losing ground in terms of driving). But it seemed that the tone of each session became more negative on Day 2 and I was more and more driving the previous corner rather than shaking it off and focusing on the next. I skipped the last session of the weekend, packed up and drove home hot, exhausted, and in a funk. That was my first experience with TWS. Driving home thinking that I am actually losing ground as a driver and that I'll be a mediocre blue student forever.

Lesson: If I had it to do over again, I would have told the instructor when it became obvious to me that this line didn't feel natural to me that I wanted to return to my previous line in Turn 1. If I had done so early on, I could have focused on learning the rest of the track instead of beating myself up mentally over one turn for the next 14 turns and consequently missing some of them too. Next lesson for anyone is if you suspect that there is a situation where communication styles don't match, talk it through with your instructor and perhaps ask for a different instructor. Its not personal.

 

Greg, the thing of TWS is that there seems to be almost an infinite number of lines that work through there (T1). I've run the high line and the low line and many lines in between. They all seem to be equally good as long as you get through two in good shape and can brake out to the turn-in for three. Now, higher HP cars tend to do better with the higher line, but I don't think it's an absolute. That transition off the banking can be a BIG pucker moment. It's weird. Don't sweat it.

The big thing your instructor should have gotten you to do is forget the last corner and focus on what is coming up. We ALL blow corners and the important thing is to gather it up for the next one and get it and the ones that follow correctly.