MRichmond

For whatever it's worth, the Daytona Prototype cars do not go WOT through the climbing esses. They carry silly speed through that section, but the telecast of the April race clearly revealed that they apply constant -- but by no means full -- throttle there.

The speeds that you can carry through the esses obviously depend on your car and tires, but Paul is right that 100 mph+ is a valid target. (I am no expert and I do 104-106 mph in an M5 on street tires, so most or all of you guys can do at least that and more.)

One word of caution -- lifting (especially abruptly) is strictly verbotten in the climbing esses and Turn 10. The results can be very ugly. So, watch your closing speeds very carefully to ensure that you do not come up on a much slower car half-way through the esses, leaving you no choice but to lift.

LVDell

Paul, all good points but totally disagree with you (rather your instructor) on the line out of the roller coaster into hogpen. You will be faster at WOT from the entry to 15 all the way to just before your turn-in at 16 with a trailbrake then on the throttle as you come out of the trailbrake to make the right hander into hogpen (17). It is imperative that you are on the throttle BEFORE you hit the compression just past the apex. Braking b/t 16 and 17 rather than before entering 16 will stunt your momentum and keep you from utilizing the DOWNHILL portion to be on the throttle faster.

Then again, everybody has thier own way of approaching the course. Take the line that you feel most comfortable with and try it a few different ways and then analzye the data.

997gt3north

Dell,

The method you mentioned for 16/17 was exactly what I was using prior to trying the line/technique I mentioned. I learned the line you mentioned by watching lots of video posted by a well known very fast red porsche that has posted some nice videos at VIR doing 2:08s. The reason I mentioned this very different line is that it is so different than what most believe and that this driver / teacher was just so fast (when I say that he did 2:05s - he was doing it on old tires and said he gets down to 2:00 on new slicks). He also pointed out that if you look closely at the track in this area you will see lots of rubber laid down on this braking line pointing right at #17 apex - he also mentioned that an even faster line was to put the "center" of your car right over #17 apex (a line he mentioned the fastest racers often use - this line obviously virtually eliminates the corner almost entirely but he suggested I not try it in my brand new GT3)

Hopefully others will try it and post back with data whether it is in fact faster or slower

LVDell

Do you have any video to show this? I'm up for trying new lines if it will make me faster and under control but I have seen NOBODY run that line. I try my best to capture video of the Cup when I run with them (well at least for part of the lap ) and I have seen none of them take that line either.

I just went through some of my video from this past weekend and watched the fast guys (2:02) and they took the line I talked about.

Maybe our lines are very similar and the difference is in braking points. I approach 16 with TB and clip the laft rumble strips with my tires and then on the throttle diving down the RIGHT side of the track clipping the rumble on the right at the apex of 17. Regardless, I do NOT track out left between 16 and 17.

997gt3north

Sorry, I do not have video - my HDD based Camcorder I purchased died on the first lap.

When I red what you just wrote, "I approach 16 with TB and clip the left rumble", this is in fact the method I was using and is further left than HIS line.

He uses no Trailling brakes on turn in - he only turns "very slightly" left at turn in and he is at WOT (not Trailling the brakes) and gets nowhere near the left rumbles (as I said this line makes it feel like you are going off the track right as the track goes left. At that point he now stands on the brakes in a straight line (no downhill trailing left then right brake dance for him).

In his opinion it is faster. Since I don't have any data I can only share the line he uses. He could infact be absolutely incorrect but he was just so fast that at minimum it is not likely a slower line in his car if executed properly (again, he drives a one off 3500 pound twin turbo 996 RUF).

Finally, when he mentioned that many times the cup racers put their entire car over the middle of #17 apex I can actually see and understand how this is faster as they have basically eliminated the corner entirely (not very good for the underside of the car)

Paul

LVDell

Here is a sequence of frames I just captured from my video. Tell me what you see and how this varies from your way. I am trying to undertstand exactly what is done in your way. FYI...I am following a CUP and my line is pretty close to exactly the line he is taking.

997gt3north

Dell,

- thanks for the frames - that helps alot
- now that I can see your line, it is not that different than he uses as your line is not the go as much to the left to set up 17 as many other cars do, that said:

1) when i look at the first frame it would appear that you are slightly further left than the cup car - as you said earlier your front left wheels hit the turtles - the cup car does not appear to hit the turtles and i would say that his line would be "very slightly" further right than the cup car is taking as he turns in slightly later and slightly less than you are doing

2) when i look at the second frame it would seem you are as far right as i remember him telling me to be except that your hands have the wheel turned to the right so before this you at some point would have been to the left (i.e. you hit the turtles he is right of them) - i remember him trying to get me in a position whereby once i turned in for 16 at WOT the hands would then straighten and full braking would be applied in what looks like your basic track positon but he wanted the wheels straight for maximum braking

I really can't believe there is much time to be saved using his method in the overall scheme of things but I can tell you that the one or two times i did it correctly i would very quickly make up one or two car lengths on the car ahead as you are holding WOT for that extra 1/2 second when everyone else has begun trail braking first left and then right before they then get on the gas just at 17 apex.

To me his technique here feels similar to the way the fastest cars take 14a and 14b - i.e. they straighten it out and just head directly at 14b's apex while the beginners are moving left to set up the apex and the fastest cars are still maximum decelerating from the ZERO braking marker into #14 at 150+mph

I hope this helps describe what he tries to do - If I am relaying his line incorrectly then it is my fault not his - I wish I could remember his name but if you ever see a Yellew 996 RUF doing 2 minute laps at VIR go over and ask him to ride with you.

The reason this has so stuck with me is that it was he who gave me my sign off ride for the black run group and after it he brought me over to his trailer and spoke with me for 1 hour. I thought he was going to go over everything I was doing wrong and where I could improve. Instead he only spoke about 3 things, the first was corner 3 and the necessity to trail brake all the way to the apex so as to carry as much speed as possible into the corner, the second was corner 4 and how he felt that everyone overslowed for #4 as they tried to exit 4 fully left (he strongly believed that it was faster if you carried more speed through the corner and tracked out to mid track for entry into #5, and then finally he spent half an hour drawing corner 16 / 17 and discussing his straighter line for braking and higher entry speed.


Paul

LVDell

Holy crap! Trailbrake into NASCAR (T3)? No f'in way. I do not desire a date with the tire wall

As for the approach to hogpen at the bottom of the roller coaster it sounds very similar to the line I go for.

bobt993

[QUOTE=LVDell]Holy crap! Trailbrake into NASCAR (T3)? No f'in way. I do not desire a date with the tire wall

Absolutely, LFB till it wants to spin, let it out WOT. I caught alot of cars there during Zone 2. Same in left hook if you can stand it (but requires a serious pedal dance).

LVDell

LFB in a car with e-gas? I have tried and got throttle retarding.

forklift

Paul, I think the name you are looking for is Gary Church.

bobt993

I thought the 996 GT3 does not come with PSM? I know this is limited on the 997 model. I did do this in my 02 Boxster S 4 years ago. You may want to experiment with it.

LVDell

Bob, there is nothing except ABS on the MkII GT3. But what does PSM have to do with it? I have experiemented with the LFB and the throttle application is removed when the brake is depressed.

forklift

[QUOTE=bobt993]I wish you had a DL-1 so we could overlay data. I picked up another .6 or so seconds this weekend at VIR, but not sure where yet.

I trail into T3, (I think everyone does actually, as it is almost impossible to approach the turn straight), but not to the apex. I like to have the power down early there to set the rear. I don't get much US in Nascar. I will try trailing more in Sept.

I was actually fighting US this weekend so I trailed the hell out of T1, 4, and Oaktree and it worked out pretty well.

Need to give more thought to the Hogpen entrance....

997gt3north

Jim,

Yes, I think that is him.
His very nice wife was my instructor for the day and then I got two rides with him in the car.

Thanks

Paul