Glen -- some good suggestions. I too would like to see the 13 rule evolve, but certainly not go away. Changing the single car 13 rule is a good suggestion. I might make it based on the severity of the incident, rather than on a local yellow (and leave it up to the scrut/steward to decide what is "minor"). Definitely would like to see 13s for dangerous driving. I think that can/does happen today, though the steward would need to see some video as proof. And the turd that always breaks should also get a 13 for sure...it is just annoying and costs everyone track time.

 

Bump to the top for a timely revisit...

 

Great thread.

 

Very very good post Glen. Don't know how I missed it last April.

PCA CR participation and participants have evolved quite a bit. I don't think there's anything wrong with an appropriate evolution of the rules that reflect the current reality.

Joe

 

Just move to SCCA. PCA will eventually get the message. I have seen far more PCA cars leaving the track on flatbeds all balled up than at SCCA events.

 

You shouldn't have to go home for a single-car incident unless it was heinous or your second offense. So I propose that for multi-car incidents they keep the existing rule but for a single-car incident they adopt a "two strikes you're out rule". Maybe call it a 6.5 rule. Two 6.5's in the same weekend and you get a 13.

Additionally, I think that being sent packing is enough of a penalty and for single-car incidents I would even go a step further and reinstate the driver for their next race.

So, if you're learning a new track and go off, no biggie. If you do it again you sit out and think about it until next race.

This is also a bonus for PCA because they wouldn't need to track single car incidents beyond the weekend they occur. They would only need to track multi-car incidents.

 

Glen, great stuff. Single car incidents in NASA are not considered a 13. Ironically, I think the strict 13 rule makes a car blocking more able to do so because of the black/white rulling. Having the option to avoid a car and hit the grass can likely lead to a 13 by kissing a tire barrier. I watched a guy who drove 13hours from NC to the Glen get this treatment at the 07 club race. He had what amounted to a tire bugger on his rear bumper, but they told him to pack up and go home.

 

I think the single car incident 13, if it hasn't caused a race stoppage, should be abolished. That being said I don't think 13 rule needs more than more use of the word "reasonable" and everyone should have video to protect themselves. The reality is we have a lot of choices and if someone 13's out of PCA Club Racing for car contact nothing is stopping them from running NASA, SCCA, or the Vintage/Historic groups (if applicable). If they 13nd out because they touched a tire barrier a couple times that sucks and (IMHO) shouldn't happen. If they 13nd out because out because they were 100% at fault for damage to someone else's car twice then maybe a break from PCA isn't a bad idea. PLENTY of other places to race!

 

First, your comment about if you don't like the 13/13 rule, go somewhere else is exactly the reason that rule is in there. It was originally put in so that people could take their Porsches and go racing in an atmosphere that would reduce the risk of damage to their cars. This was the founding principle of PCA Club Racing.

I'm not saying that the 13/13 rule could not be modified or improved at this stage of racing, but it should not be eliminated.

Maybe you should not be blaming the 13/13 rule for all the incidents in PCA racing, rather blame the quality and attitude of some of the PCA racers. It would be far better and far more productive if people put their energies into improving their driving and their race craft.

 

I think the single car 13's should changed so that you arent sent packing for something minor. Also I would like to see the 13's enforced equally, it is amazing how if a sponsor of an event or a PCA worker is involved that the rules seem to change and 13's dont get handed out but if you are just a regular Joe and have the exact same incident you are given a 13 no questions asked........

 

Excellent thread!

I concur with Glen on what happens in the pro's. BTDT, on the receiving end, more than once.

A couple of addition asugestions to this topic:

1) MANDATORY front/rear video with audio in ever PCA club race car

2) simplified, short list of bullet points of what does & does not get a 13; still give stewards some subjectivity, but be much more specific & SUCCINCT in the rules; there is no reason Chris Cervelli should have gotten a 13 for what happened at Daytona when the guy ahead of him missed a shift (or whatever)...

 

I too believe in the modified 13/13...1 car incidents should not recieve a 13. Minor issues should be sorted out after the race is over. There are some minor "racing incidents" that happen. I have raced largely in NASA for these reasons as well as the hp/wt issue that makes for much "fairer" racing.

Mike

 

Just got off the phone with a good friend running with PBOC down in FL right now.. raining, touched the wall, NO 13. THAT's the way it should be..