DE Rules are not optional
03-22-2007, 01:23 PM
#47
Drifting
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Originally Posted by Z-man
I work in IT -- with all the fires I have to put out day to day, I should be wearing one to work! 
03-22-2007, 01:23 PM
#48
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Z-man
I suppose the black run group wants to prove themselves to the red folks, while the red run group is trying to show who is the boss. Putting on my nomex...
-Z-man.
-Z-man.
03-22-2007, 01:24 PM
#49
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As for the original post...some folks need to realize that they aren't racing, duck into the pits, and then let the organizers know about the problem drivers later. Be the bigger man (or woman). The drama about passing seems to go down for drivers who actually race, because they realize that a DE really is a DE, not "almost racing".
03-22-2007, 01:25 PM
#50
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For example the train of three tight cars that car 3 and 2 give the signal but lead car (#1) does not and there is a serious variance in speed. What then? Wedge in the middle of #1 and #2 after jamming on the brakes down the high speed back straight?
This example was posted on the VIR thread also and I let it ride.
If you passed car #3 and car#2 and cannot slow yourself down and be patient before car #1 gives the signal, then I feel you have become part of the problem. This is DE! You are in control of your own car and your own driving. We all agree the cars in the front should give a point, but that does not excuse you from driving within the rules and being patient and waiting for a point. I feel that if you cannot pass car #3 and possibly car#2 and plan ahead to tuck in behind car#1, then you did not execute good judgement. Should you have gotten the pass - YES. If your plan does not include what to do if you do not get the pass from car#1, then do not pass car#3 in the first place. It is much easier to drive with people you know. When you drive at a Zone event, there will be many cars that you will not know. Plan ahead, be safe and we can all continue this hobby we all love.
I drive a turbo car - not as quickly as I would like - and one must have patience in a DE. When my you know whats get a little bigger, I may club race. Until then, it is DE for me and w/o waiting for a pass, it is not as safe.
Tony Scalies
03-22-2007, 01:25 PM
#51
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The drama about passing seems to go down for drivers who actually race, because they realize that a DE really is a DE, not "almost racing".
03-22-2007, 01:33 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
Why should it be incumbent upon the wanna be passer to come in and complain? That is exactly backwards to me. If you put the onus on the passer to complain or pit in, then the person who as done NOTHING wrong loses track time merely to point out that someone else is doing something wrong.
I hate talking to other drivers about issues, and I hate complaining about someone even more. It is a damned DE after all and we are all supposed to be out there having fun. When someone is reluctant to point people by, it is usually a problem for multiple drivers . . . . so that person is the one who should be spoken to. This doesn't mean that they should be knocked back a group, or even scolded. Afterall, everyone makes mistakes. I get walked all the time after I receive a point by, and I just assume that the person doesn't realize that I really want the point by. When I catch them in the next braking zone, then they need to realize it and lift to get me by. If they don't, the flaggers should make them pit in (after two or so corners of blue flags, for example) and they should be spoken to politely. My bet is that if they are spoken to, the behaviour will stop. This is also more civil, because it stops problems before they get too bad, and they obviate the "I would like to talk with you" type conversations that are potentially destructive to the comaraderie that driving is supposed to foster. I don't want ever to have to talk to another driver, and I ALWAYS feel bad afterwards even when I am right.
A person who doesn't give point-bys causes danger. Why? Becuase it creates incentives for the person behind them to get ever closer. How else can you get the point across that you really want by? I don't want to harass anyone, but I don't have lights and it is extremely dangerous for the person who wants to pass to wave their hands like a madman because that could be misunderstood by other drivers, who then might blow by them thinking they just got a passing signal when instead you were in the process of giving a half McQueen Salute to the driver in front of you.
The Internet always makes these issues seem like they are more serious than they are. Usually there are only one or two people who cause problems, and that usually doesn't ruin anyone's weekend. I do grow weary of forcing the innocent to lose track time or become whiny babies just to get the issue addressed. I would rather just drive.
I hate talking to other drivers about issues, and I hate complaining about someone even more. It is a damned DE after all and we are all supposed to be out there having fun. When someone is reluctant to point people by, it is usually a problem for multiple drivers . . . . so that person is the one who should be spoken to. This doesn't mean that they should be knocked back a group, or even scolded. Afterall, everyone makes mistakes. I get walked all the time after I receive a point by, and I just assume that the person doesn't realize that I really want the point by. When I catch them in the next braking zone, then they need to realize it and lift to get me by. If they don't, the flaggers should make them pit in (after two or so corners of blue flags, for example) and they should be spoken to politely. My bet is that if they are spoken to, the behaviour will stop. This is also more civil, because it stops problems before they get too bad, and they obviate the "I would like to talk with you" type conversations that are potentially destructive to the comaraderie that driving is supposed to foster. I don't want ever to have to talk to another driver, and I ALWAYS feel bad afterwards even when I am right.
A person who doesn't give point-bys causes danger. Why? Becuase it creates incentives for the person behind them to get ever closer. How else can you get the point across that you really want by? I don't want to harass anyone, but I don't have lights and it is extremely dangerous for the person who wants to pass to wave their hands like a madman because that could be misunderstood by other drivers, who then might blow by them thinking they just got a passing signal when instead you were in the process of giving a half McQueen Salute to the driver in front of you.
The Internet always makes these issues seem like they are more serious than they are. Usually there are only one or two people who cause problems, and that usually doesn't ruin anyone's weekend. I do grow weary of forcing the innocent to lose track time or become whiny babies just to get the issue addressed. I would rather just drive.
03-22-2007, 01:38 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Tony356993
I disagree.
This example was posted on the VIR thread also and I let it ride.
If you passed car #3 and car#2 and cannot slow yourself down and be patient before car #1 gives the signal, then I feel you have become part of the problem. This is DE! You are in control of your own car and your own driving. We all agree the cars in the front should give a point, but that does not excuse you from driving within the rules and being patient and waiting for a point. I feel that if you cannot pass car #3 and possibly car#2 and plan ahead to tuck in behind car#1, then you did not execute good judgement. Should you have gotten the pass - YES. If your plan does not include what to do if you do not get the pass from car#1, then do not pass car#3 in the first place. It is much easier to drive with people you know. When you drive at a Zone event, there will be many cars that you will not know. Plan ahead, be safe and we can all continue this hobby we all love.
I drive a turbo car - not as quickly as I would like - and one must have patience in a DE. When my you know whats get a little bigger, I may club race. Until then, it is DE for me and w/o waiting for a pass, it is not as safe.
Tony Scalies
This example was posted on the VIR thread also and I let it ride.
If you passed car #3 and car#2 and cannot slow yourself down and be patient before car #1 gives the signal, then I feel you have become part of the problem. This is DE! You are in control of your own car and your own driving. We all agree the cars in the front should give a point, but that does not excuse you from driving within the rules and being patient and waiting for a point. I feel that if you cannot pass car #3 and possibly car#2 and plan ahead to tuck in behind car#1, then you did not execute good judgement. Should you have gotten the pass - YES. If your plan does not include what to do if you do not get the pass from car#1, then do not pass car#3 in the first place. It is much easier to drive with people you know. When you drive at a Zone event, there will be many cars that you will not know. Plan ahead, be safe and we can all continue this hobby we all love.
I drive a turbo car - not as quickly as I would like - and one must have patience in a DE. When my you know whats get a little bigger, I may club race. Until then, it is DE for me and w/o waiting for a pass, it is not as safe.
Tony Scalies
With your disagreement on my approach , which by the way I put myself up for critique instead og hypotheticals most give, you think FORCING my way inbetween Car 1 and Car 2 would have been the safe thing? That could have been catastrophic had I tried that. Please explain the proper way that should have been executed.
FYI.....I have NEVER NEVER NEVER held somebody up to prove a point and have on MANY MANY MANY ocassions lifted at the beginning of the short straight leading to the uphill esses to allow cars I saw way back that I did not want to hold up until we were on the back straight. So please do not lump me in with those you have sent to the Club Racing abyss b/c you think that are some sort of DE crazed drover.
03-22-2007, 01:41 PM
#55
Nordschleife Master
Tony.......Let me add one more thing. Under no circumstance have I ever passed a solo car without a point-by in my 3+ years of doing this. I have sat parked behind an ego filled jackass that refused to give the point-by and just bit my tongue, finally come through the hot pits and then went back out. The example I gave was to give a situation that was not the normal situation that we are talking about--passing a car without a point-by.
03-22-2007, 01:49 PM
#56
Race Director
Originally Posted by TD in DC
Why should it be incumbent upon the wanna be passer to come in and complain? That is exactly backwards to me. If you put the onus on the passer to complain or pit in, then the person who as done NOTHING wrong loses track time merely to point out that someone else is doing something wrong.
I would rather roll through the pits to get away from a driver who won't give me a point by, than spend the rest of the session building up the red mist while I desperately try to get around the individual who has a problem seeing a red 944 in their rearview mirror.
If someone passes me without a signal, it can also get the red mist going within ME. If I have a short chat with the chief instructor, that will help dispell that mist in most cases.
Either way -- what is more important -- missing track time where the driver is frustrated, or sacrificing a little track time in order to gain a better time out there?
Besides, if I'm on the tail of someone for 3-4 laps, and they don't give me a point by, if I pit in, you bet they're gonna be thinking that they should have been a bit more polite. Also: if a guy passes me without a signal, and he sees my hand go up to pit, he will probably be watching for the black flag...
-Z-man.
03-22-2007, 01:50 PM
#57
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Dell,
Since car 3 gave the point, you had to take it? I'm just stating that if you thought there was any possibility that car #2 or car#1 might not give the pioint, why not wait until another passing zone?
Since car 3 gave the point, you had to take it? I'm just stating that if you thought there was any possibility that car #2 or car#1 might not give the pioint, why not wait until another passing zone?
03-22-2007, 01:51 PM
#58
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I think many of us are too hung up on loosing any precious track time. Not just in cases of coming into the pits because another driver doesn't "play well with others." but with going out onto the track without the proper mindset.
03-22-2007, 01:58 PM
#59
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As a relatively new DE'er in one of the lower groups (riding with an instructor), I am following this thread with great interest since my goal is to eventually move up to a solo group. I noticed several have commented about lifting on the throttle to allow a pass. I wanted an opinion on a comment an instructor told me at one DE. When I backed off on the throttle after giving the passing signal, I was told that I don't necessarily have to slow down just because I gave a passing signal. I'm curious what the etiquite is on that. I'm guessing that like most things, its dependent on the circumstances (run group, track, location on the track, the type of car that is passing you, etc). Also like to know opinions on if you should yield the "line" if you've authorized someone to pass you until they've cleared you. Or do you expect the passer to go outside the line? I've gotten some thoughts on this from instructors, but would like to hear more.
03-22-2007, 01:58 PM
#60
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Tony356993
Dell,
Since car 3 gave the point, you had to take it? I'm just stating that if you thought there was any possibility that car #2 or car#1 might not give the pioint, why not wait until another passing zone?
Since car 3 gave the point, you had to take it? I'm just stating that if you thought there was any possibility that car #2 or car#1 might not give the pioint, why not wait until another passing zone?
I sincerely hope you do not interpret this as a pissing contest or situation where I believe I am abolutely correct. I am just trying to understand what you believe the RIGHT and SAFE (maybe not the same thing) thing to do should have been. This is a learning experience after all, isn't it? Hence the reason I actually put my OWN experience out there for critique.