Racing Schools, Which is best?
02-09-2007, 01:51 PM
#16
On temporary vacation
Originally Posted by Geo
I've written this many times, but if you really want to learn to race, buy a kart and chase a points championship. You'll learn more in one season than 5 in cars. They used to tell me that when I raced karts and I thought it was just an exaggeration. I found out it wasn't. It's true. Just so you know the experience from which I speak, I've done (in order):
autocross
karting
commercial racing school
DE
SCCA licensing school
SCCA club racing
I learned far more in karting than all the others combined. When I went to racing school I certainly learned some things that probably would have taken me some years to figure out on my own. But, when I went to my SCCA school and when I started racing, I leaned nearly 100% on my karting experience. It prepared me better than anything else I had done.
As Todd said, racing school doesn't really teach racing. They mainly are concerned that your check or CC clears and that you don't cause damage to their car. They will teach you some basics and maybe a little more, but don't expect a "racing school."
IMHO you should choose based upon the type of car, the track, and whether they offer something unique. For instance, the Daly school uses data acquisition. I think that would be great for learning. Just go and enjoy the experience. That's mainly what the 3 day school is for - enjoyment.
autocross
karting
commercial racing school
DE
SCCA licensing school
SCCA club racing
I learned far more in karting than all the others combined. When I went to racing school I certainly learned some things that probably would have taken me some years to figure out on my own. But, when I went to my SCCA school and when I started racing, I leaned nearly 100% on my karting experience. It prepared me better than anything else I had done.
As Todd said, racing school doesn't really teach racing. They mainly are concerned that your check or CC clears and that you don't cause damage to their car. They will teach you some basics and maybe a little more, but don't expect a "racing school."
IMHO you should choose based upon the type of car, the track, and whether they offer something unique. For instance, the Daly school uses data acquisition. I think that would be great for learning. Just go and enjoy the experience. That's mainly what the 3 day school is for - enjoyment.
What I miss most about karting is going 10/10s all the time, because one can afford to do so. When on track now, I find myself going 8 or 9/10's because of the cost if one screws up and goes off. Not so in karting.
02-09-2007, 02:08 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Val,
What do you want to learn, and at what stage are you currently?
I enjoyed Barber at Road America, and found it a good place to start. Alot of it is very basic, and the approach of building up 500 rpm at a time is safe, but a bit trying on one's patience.
I did an advanced course at Bondurant, while a friend took the basic course. The basic Bondurant course gives you more seat time, as Skip Barber (at least then) caused 2 people to share each car. All levels at Bondurant give each student a car. (with lots of spare cars around)
I think that one course doesn't really get you there. If I were starting over, I would do the basic 3 day Bondurant intro course. Then do a bunch of track days. Then come back to Bondurant for the advanced course. In that course, you spend lots of time on the track at max speed with other cars. Passing is controlled, but you can go nose-to tail as long as you want (depends on how comfortable you are) I estimate I did over 100 laps daily for three days. By the end of the third day, there wans't anything more I could get out of their car or me. AS
What do you want to learn, and at what stage are you currently?
I enjoyed Barber at Road America, and found it a good place to start. Alot of it is very basic, and the approach of building up 500 rpm at a time is safe, but a bit trying on one's patience.
I did an advanced course at Bondurant, while a friend took the basic course. The basic Bondurant course gives you more seat time, as Skip Barber (at least then) caused 2 people to share each car. All levels at Bondurant give each student a car. (with lots of spare cars around)
I think that one course doesn't really get you there. If I were starting over, I would do the basic 3 day Bondurant intro course. Then do a bunch of track days. Then come back to Bondurant for the advanced course. In that course, you spend lots of time on the track at max speed with other cars. Passing is controlled, but you can go nose-to tail as long as you want (depends on how comfortable you are) I estimate I did over 100 laps daily for three days. By the end of the third day, there wans't anything more I could get out of their car or me. AS
02-09-2007, 02:37 PM
#18
I actually liked it that barber shared cars. I learned a whole lot by sitting by the turns and commenting on how everyone took them and the proper way to take them. And of course, they would always point out who lifted when they shouldn't have and you can really see how far you can go into a turn.
02-09-2007, 10:37 PM
#19
NASA Racer
Rennlist Member
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TD raises a very good point and one that I've been thinking about lately. Why aren't there any schools that teach racecraft instead of perfomance driving. Seems to me that there would be a pretty good market for it.
02-10-2007, 11:30 AM
#20
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 1957 356
TD raises a very good point and one that I've been thinking about lately. Why aren't there any schools that teach racecraft instead of perfomance driving. Seems to me that there would be a pretty good market for it.
OTOH, how often do you, or anyone else, even practice racecraft? Do you drive off line in sessions, imagining you are making a pass under braking or an outside pass or ???
02-10-2007, 11:57 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
I am a proponent of Panoz at Road Atlanta. Instruction is top-notch and track is difficult to learn. If you can learn to drive a Panoz GT at a competitive level at Road Atlanta, you can race on any track in a Porsche and be a very good club racer. At least seven racers that I've raced against are racing in Grand Am Cup or World Speed Challenge. Jeff Courtney won Rookie of the Year in WSC ST last year. He has a Panoz background as well.
02-10-2007, 04:26 PM
#23
I met Dennis Macchio from Bertil Roos Racing School at a BMW DE. Has anyone ever attended one of their schools. They use data acquisition and participants aren't liable for damages.
02-10-2007, 10:12 PM
#24
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Hi Bailey,
I did the Bertil Roose five day road racing competition school to get my SCCA regional Competition License in 2001 at Virginia International Raceway, driving Formula 2000 winged continental. Dennis is a very experienced Fromula 2000 racer with a Van Diemen. He also has Chuck Goldsborough as an instructor-Chuck is owner/driver of Team Lexus, was 2002 or 2003 Grand Am champion,...
The classes are small, the drive time a lot, you do three instructional days and two days of actual racing. A really great experience at great venue. There are very few restrctions...passing allowed, the cars are doing about 135 mph down the straight after Oak Tree. We drove in 40 degree weather in the rain with open cockpits...the way they taught was this> the rain coming off the tires will make visibility difficult. When you see the spray mist in front of you reduced to the size of a basketball, you are two inches from the trans case of the car in front of you!! Needless to say, the learning curve in situations like this is tremendous. We had clear skies for the two race days, which were awesome. Dennis is not just a great driver, he is an excellent teacher (I beleive he taught economics at Columbia) and knows how to qualify people.
Hope this helps,
Nick
I did the Bertil Roose five day road racing competition school to get my SCCA regional Competition License in 2001 at Virginia International Raceway, driving Formula 2000 winged continental. Dennis is a very experienced Fromula 2000 racer with a Van Diemen. He also has Chuck Goldsborough as an instructor-Chuck is owner/driver of Team Lexus, was 2002 or 2003 Grand Am champion,...
The classes are small, the drive time a lot, you do three instructional days and two days of actual racing. A really great experience at great venue. There are very few restrctions...passing allowed, the cars are doing about 135 mph down the straight after Oak Tree. We drove in 40 degree weather in the rain with open cockpits...the way they taught was this> the rain coming off the tires will make visibility difficult. When you see the spray mist in front of you reduced to the size of a basketball, you are two inches from the trans case of the car in front of you!! Needless to say, the learning curve in situations like this is tremendous. We had clear skies for the two race days, which were awesome. Dennis is not just a great driver, he is an excellent teacher (I beleive he taught economics at Columbia) and knows how to qualify people.
Hope this helps,
Nick
02-11-2007, 03:48 AM
#25
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Thanks for all the feedback! My goal is not to get into wheel to wheel right now. I've done quite a few track days, DEs over the past 3 years and including a racing school (Not one of the ones mentioned).
My fiancee' wants to get me the school as a wedding present. I'm not going to argue with her on that.
What got me thinking is something in GRM in the "do you need a driving coach" article. It read something like if you haven't gone to one of the professional schools do that first as the instructors are professionals as opposed to volunteers that have many students to juggle and can't spend that much time with you as the pro schools.
First off, forgive me if I misquoted the article.
I personally have had an overall good experience with volunteer instructors in BMWCCA PCA POC etc and hold them in high regard for their skills patience and giving nature. I think that I can always learn something each time I have someone more experienced in the car.
Skippy etc is a lot of $ I'm trying to get perspective on whether it's well spent versus more seat time.
My fiancee' wants to get me the school as a wedding present. I'm not going to argue with her on that.
What got me thinking is something in GRM in the "do you need a driving coach" article. It read something like if you haven't gone to one of the professional schools do that first as the instructors are professionals as opposed to volunteers that have many students to juggle and can't spend that much time with you as the pro schools.
First off, forgive me if I misquoted the article.
I personally have had an overall good experience with volunteer instructors in BMWCCA PCA POC etc and hold them in high regard for their skills patience and giving nature. I think that I can always learn something each time I have someone more experienced in the car.
Skippy etc is a lot of $ I'm trying to get perspective on whether it's well spent versus more seat time.
02-11-2007, 11:58 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by va122
It read something like if you haven't gone to one of the professional schools do that first as the instructors are professionals as opposed to volunteers...
I personally have had an overall good experience with volunteer instructors in BMWCCA PCA POC etc and hold them in high regard for their skills patience and giving nature. I think that I can always learn something each time I have someone more experienced in the car.
Skippy etc is a lot of $ I'm trying to get perspective on whether it's well spent versus more seat time.
I personally have had an overall good experience with volunteer instructors in BMWCCA PCA POC etc and hold them in high regard for their skills patience and giving nature. I think that I can always learn something each time I have someone more experienced in the car.
Skippy etc is a lot of $ I'm trying to get perspective on whether it's well spent versus more seat time.
I think if you really want to learn, you want a school where the instructor can be in the car with you, like Panoz or Bondurant. I guess Porsche has schools, too, these days.
The PCA and BMWCCA instructors are, as you said, mostly great guys and some are great drivers, some are good drivers, but some are terrible! But that is, no question, the least expensive way to learn. The secret is to continue to solicit instructors to ride with you (ask around and pick the best ones!), even AFTER you are "signed off" for solo driving.
$3000 spent on 6 more PCA/BMWCCA schools will benefit you more than any $3000 3-day school, I bet. It will help to go to DE's at different tracks, too.
Last edited by centerpunch; 02-11-2007 at 12:40 PM.
02-11-2007, 04:19 PM
#28
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Very good point about the single seater. I can solo myself but that doesn't mean I'm learning anything.
Bonderant has the Z06s and formula cars. I'll look into that.
Bonderant has the Z06s and formula cars. I'll look into that.
02-17-2007, 02:22 AM
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Lots of good advice here. I recommend a committment to more than one school. Most importantly, obtain a regional license for SCCA or NASA events, and enter some local races as soon as you can in between the schooling. Even as a back marker you will learn a ton about driving/passing in traffic and the critical things going on around you. All the schools mentioned are good, but I would select one located at a legitimate race track. It is best to learn in a low horsepower car to master the line, learn cornering momentum and braking skills. The horsepower will come easy. And as others have mentioned, Karting is the best! Good luck.