Randolph Racing

Hi guys, I am wondering if any of you 911 drivers were once 944 drivers. I currently DE my 944 and would like more power. I am looking at getting a 911 track car, yet I am concerned since everyone seems to comment on the difficulty in driving one based on the weight bias.
I could get a 944 turbo and run with the 911's but I like the "raw" apect of an early 911. I also think they tend to be more durable. Also, once I get used to it, can't I use that weight bias to my advantage?

Anyone have experience with both cars?

M758

A race perpared 944 is faster than a stock 944 Turbo S on street tires. I have both and I know this for a fact. A race prepared 944 can be street legal, but is not really a street car. It will cost about $6-10k to buy and build the car depending on who does the work and how fancy you want to get. 911's are fine cars, but a prepared 944 can easly match them. I remember a race where out qualified two 911's a 77 euro with good driver and RS America with an OK driver. The RS really had a power edge, but I could hold him off with corner speed.

BTW my race prepared car has a 100% stock motor (from intake snorkel or cat and exhaust). Car is 100% steel body with 350lbs front srpings & 28 mm tbars. Koni Yellow sports, Weltmeister sway bars. Weight reduced to 2450lbs. So it is a low cost reliable car not fragile racing special.

QUICK'44

I'll relate another observation to M758's.
I've been running against full race 911's for many years.

No imperical data on the following but... I have observed on numerous occasions fellow competitors starting the new season with a fresh built full race six cylinder...posting very quick times,only to see those times gradually decrease as the season progresses...this,almost without exception.

I believe these things just begin to slowly self-destruct from their very first lap. The loss of HP in these motors is very apparent..not subtle at all.

I firmly believe,and have proven with several different motors,that the 944,turbo or not, is far more reliable than the aircooled six's that are race prepped.

The six's may not grenade..but they lose huge amounts of power over the course of a season.

Randolph Racing

M758,

I as well have done very well against 911's, however I only do DE's. I always get them in the twisties with no problem. I just would like a little extra power wjhenit comse to tracks like Watkins Glen. I'd love to do the 944 Cup races, but some are just too far away for me to make.

Thanks for the comments

Z-man

RR: Last week, I ran my 944S2 in a DE at The Glen (PCA-NNJR). Blue/White run group (intermediate level, I'm in Blue). There were some really high HP cars out there (911's, 951's..etc.) which I could not keep up with at all!(power and more driver experience). BUT: there were some 'faster' cars that I passed, including: 951's, 911's (including a C4S) and a 996. Remember: driver skill counts more than a car's power!

Regarding using rear weight bias to your advantage: I'm not conviced of that. A car that's balanced 50/50 is easier to drive, no matter what skill level you have. It takes more work to be quick in a 911 in the corners, although the higher hp gives it a benefit on the straights.

At DE, you have the benefit of slower drivers of faster cars letting you go by. If you're in their rear view mirror long enough, eventually they'll let you pass.

My 944S2 is a great momentum car, and I try to do everything to optimize my exit speed. Though a 944 n/a may not have as much torque as my S2, I know of several 924S and 944 n/a drivers that can easily pass my 'faster' car and others.

How much experience do you have with DE? If not a lot, get more seat time before you upgrade your car! Quick lap times aren't always the result of more hp. Stick with what you've got for now.

Just my $0.42, and I don't mean to start a 944 vs. 911 war here: I do plan myself on getting a 911 for the track in the future...
-Z-man.

Randolph Racing

Z-man,

I know exactly where you are coming from, and don't get me wrong. I too pass my share of 911's, 930,s and 951's in my N/A 944.

In the twisties, there are not many cars I do not get on top of. I am sure you have experienced the same thing as I. Up a 911's butt through the entire course, only to watch them pull away on the straights.

I guess my concern is moving from a car that is so well - balanced to one that is not. But on a positive note, many guys love the fact that haven't mastered their 911 after 10 -12 years of driving!

I am resisting a 951 becuase a. I think on a very short track, a normally aspirated car is still better for coing out of a hole. b. I just watch so many blow-up as people try to get just a little more power out of them.

Something about a N/A 911 keeps calling me. Nothing fancy here, just a lot of motor, and not a lot of car.

924RACR

Then you should probably get one. If you have that much dedicated enthusiasm towards one, in spite of all the technical arguments against it (triumph of pure German bloody-mindedness over physics) then you should by all means get one, as you can be sure of enjoying the experience!

Personally, I love how easy my car is to drive... and it's a tail-dragger of sorts too, 1% tail-heavy. I tell newbies driving my car on track - if you get it sideways, let go, let the car sort itself out, then take charge again. It works very well. However, it appears that your motivations are not simply the fastest or easiest to drive. It's the other intangible qualities that are appealing to you, so you should pursue them.

Personally, what really motivates me is not an underpowered car that's easy to drive and can waltz around other cars - as much as I enjoy that! What I looks forward to is a car that builds serious power on a rabid torque curve under boost, make sure you've got it aimed right before you squeeze the trigger!!!

Palting

FWIW, given that I'm a novice, have been doing DE's only for the last 4 months, and I have a 996 C4S (which some people will argue is not a 911 ), here's my .02. The only reason I'm even venturing an opinion is that you mentioned you only do DE's, and you also seem to need some reinforcement.

I took delivery of the C4S last Feb, and have been tracking it ever since I had it broken in. I have since moved from the lowest rank novice, and expect to be in red group next time out in some tracks. In all the run groups I've run in, the 911 C4S has outrun 944's and 944S's, most if not all of them on track tires while my car was bone stock. True, some 944S's have outrun me as well, but they certainly are not invincible against the 911. Also true, it takes all I can do to keep up with them on the esses. But, at the end of those curves, at the end of the carousel, just past the apex, when I lean on that throttle all the way to the carpet, I am climbing all over their behinds so close that they have no choice but give me the passing signal.

As I said, just my .02.

Sloth

I used to only run the 944 cars at the tracks. Recently I started running 911's (87 stock, race built 86, 99 996 street). It does take some getting used to, but you will have just as much fun once you get comfortable. The rear weigh bias is something to keep in mind but you will adapt your driving style.

Larry Weinstein

Let's see now...a $60k or so 996 outrunning a $10k 944....I'd say that's a no brainer.

Now take that $60k and build a GT3 944 and let's see what happens.

Larry Weinstein

Just a quick story about another novice I met with the Audi club about seven years ago.

He had only been running for a year or so and was pretty proud of how he had progressed quickly into the "A" group with his E36 M3.

That was Saturday night.

Sunday morning...first session out...into the tire wall at Gratton. About $5k damage.

MY $.02:

Buy a seriously underpowered car and learn how to drive for a few years before you jump into something like a 993/996/turbo S. Spend the money you save doing lots of schools and open track days. And stop worrying about how many people you pass and how many pass you. (yea, that's a tough one-I know.)

Palting

[quote]Originally posted by Larry Weinstein:
<strong>Let's see now...a $60k or so 996 outrunning a $10k 944....I'd say that's a no brainer.

Now take that $60k and build a GT3 944 and let's see what happens.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Made me smile. But, the 911 is also my daily driver and cruiser. At the end of the weekend DE, I close the windows, turn on the AC, wife in the passenger seat, pick Natalie Cole from the CD changer, and drive on home. Whether its a few minutes or several hours, it's still a great GT drive.

I actually thought about getting a 944 when it became apparent I was hooked on DE. It IS a great track car, easy to learn on, yet challenging enough that you learn all the fine points, and the 951 is supposed to be the best. Plus, you wreck it, it don't cost as much. I finally decided that I already had the 911, I was very comfortable with it, whatever cost I would have entailed to purchase and refurbish a 944 can easily be used to repair/upgrade the 911.

And, I agree with Larry. DE is all about driving safe, driving within your limits, and good driving technique. Don't forget fun. The fact that you pass people while doing so is just incidental .

Randolph Racing

Larry,

It has nothing to do with passing people. I have been running my normally aspirated 944 for four years with an average of 10 weekends per year. That's 80 track days and have mo intention of buying an $80,000 car. Other then the fact that I can't afford it, I don't see the point in tracking my street car.

I simply deire something with a little more power and I am trying to decide between a 951 or a 911. I had no intentions of starting a war om this topic, I just was hoping to get the opinion of people who used both on the track.

If I wanted to go as fast as possible I would buy me a 951, give Huntley about $10,000 and walk away with a neutral handling car with 400 HP.

Sloth

There have been some interesting debates on this one. The 951 will give you the most bang for the buck, is far cheaper than a 911 to upgrade for some serious power, and will not cost as much if you put it into a wall.

pig4bill

You can substitute the word "Mustang" for "951" and substitute "951" for "911" too. There's more than $ per second saved in lap times for most 911 owners.

[quote]Originally posted by Sloth:
<strong>There have been some interesting debates on this one. The 951 will give you the most bang for the buck, is far cheaper than a 911 to upgrade for some serious power, and will not cost as much if you put it into a wall.</strong><hr></blockquote>