Novice Question about R Compounds
06-13-2003, 01:13 PM
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Drifting
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Novice Question about R Compounds
I understand that the best case scenario for a novice is to start off on street tires when breaking in to track driving.
However, do to ignorance at my first event and necessity at my second event, I have now run three track days on R compounds.
Should stick with the R's for my next event or go with street rubber?
Next event will be Willow in August.
Hey, you don't suppose it will be hot, do you?
However, do to ignorance at my first event and necessity at my second event, I have now run three track days on R compounds.
Should stick with the R's for my next event or go with street rubber?
Next event will be Willow in August.
Hey, you don't suppose it will be hot, do you?
06-13-2003, 01:32 PM
#2
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Dunno, Scott we are counting on you to have tested it thoroughly before we get there 
.
Are you talking about the Zone 8 TT on the 9th and 10th? I plan to be there also. Hopefully, I'll do a better job of looking up fellow Rennlisters and HWFMR teammates this time.
Can't really help you with R compound question though, sorry.
.Are you talking about the Zone 8 TT on the 9th and 10th? I plan to be there also. Hopefully, I'll do a better job of looking up fellow Rennlisters and HWFMR teammates this time.
Can't really help you with R compound question though, sorry.
06-13-2003, 02:00 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Scott,
The good thing about learning on street compound tires is:
1.They are way more perdictable, you can feel the car start to slide and correct it before you go full spin.
2. You can learn from the squeal of the tires. When the tires are talking to you at the apex you have pushed them close to the limit and took the turn correct. Talking to you before or after apex and you have not taken the turn properly
3. The false confidence that R compound tires gives you with their grip may actualy slow your learning curve. You can make all kinds of mistakes and the grip will mask the problem. Right up until the time when they let go without any warning, most often near a guard rail, tire wall or some other imovable object.
I'm sure others will chime in with other sailent points but from lessons I have learned, I would use up a set of streets (on the track) before moving to the R's.
Now with that being said, I will be hard to keep those R's in the garage. Go out with a instructor and push the car to get the street tires to make some noise, He/She should be able to help you interpet what the tires are trying to tell you. When you have that down and can feel the limit, slap on the R's.
Just remember, when a R compound tires lets go, it happens very,very fast. You better have the skill set developed to save it or...
The good thing about learning on street compound tires is:
1.They are way more perdictable, you can feel the car start to slide and correct it before you go full spin.
2. You can learn from the squeal of the tires. When the tires are talking to you at the apex you have pushed them close to the limit and took the turn correct. Talking to you before or after apex and you have not taken the turn properly
3. The false confidence that R compound tires gives you with their grip may actualy slow your learning curve. You can make all kinds of mistakes and the grip will mask the problem. Right up until the time when they let go without any warning, most often near a guard rail, tire wall or some other imovable object.
I'm sure others will chime in with other sailent points but from lessons I have learned, I would use up a set of streets (on the track) before moving to the R's.
Now with that being said, I will be hard to keep those R's in the garage. Go out with a instructor and push the car to get the street tires to make some noise, He/She should be able to help you interpet what the tires are trying to tell you. When you have that down and can feel the limit, slap on the R's.
Just remember, when a R compound tires lets go, it happens very,very fast. You better have the skill set developed to save it or...
06-13-2003, 02:40 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
Eric,
As a newer member of HWFM Racing, I hate to criticize you post, but I feel I must. Your methods run counter to the HWFM Racing Team philosophy, and may actually, in the long term, make Scott a faster (ie, worse) driver. "Slow in, slow out, slow down the straights" is the technique that we should be striving for. I'm wondering why, in light of the above, HWFM Racing actually needs or even wants a Chief Driving Instructor, let alone, one with your bad attitude and good driving skills. Keep up this sort of thing, and Scott may find himself on the dreaded podium some day. Bad, bad, bad.
As a newer member of HWFM Racing, I hate to criticize you post, but I feel I must. Your methods run counter to the HWFM Racing Team philosophy, and may actually, in the long term, make Scott a faster (ie, worse) driver. "Slow in, slow out, slow down the straights" is the technique that we should be striving for. I'm wondering why, in light of the above, HWFM Racing actually needs or even wants a Chief Driving Instructor, let alone, one with your bad attitude and good driving skills. Keep up this sort of thing, and Scott may find himself on the dreaded podium some day. Bad, bad, bad.
06-13-2003, 02:57 PM
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Drifting
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Eric: Yes, the R's make almost no noise when they start to go compared to the street tires. My instructor at this weekends event at Buttonwillow did have me doing some beginner level steering of the rear end using the throttle. I think I was able to manage it OK.
My fear is that I'm starting to generate some speed and as far as I can tell I'm manageing OK but in actuality I have no clue and I'm a hairs breadth from disaster.
My observation (from my lofty vantage point of 3 track days)is that absolute beginners and very experienced people seem to be pretty safe.
It's the intermediates who have learned how to go fast, but have little disaster management skills who are having problems.
I guess I really need input from instructors who have driven with me. Maybe I can get hold of Mike Kaidby, who drove with me on Monday and get his take.
My fear is that I'm starting to generate some speed and as far as I can tell I'm manageing OK but in actuality I have no clue and I'm a hairs breadth from disaster.
My observation (from my lofty vantage point of 3 track days)is that absolute beginners and very experienced people seem to be pretty safe.
It's the intermediates who have learned how to go fast, but have little disaster management skills who are having problems.
I guess I really need input from instructors who have driven with me. Maybe I can get hold of Mike Kaidby, who drove with me on Monday and get his take.
06-13-2003, 03:24 PM
#7
The short answer is...
If you have to ask the question, you should probably switch back to street tires.
The long answer...
You should be able to get a good feel of what the car is doing via your butt and also the steering wheel. If you don't have that feel yet, you might want to consider using street tires so that you also get the aural clues.
The odds are pretty good, though, that you really aren't pushing the limits yet if you have only 3 days of experience and your speeds wouldn't be appreciably different in street tires or R-compounds. I'd recommend switching back to street tires so that you can get the benefit of the tire screech to help you learn when you are near the limit.
Another nice thing of the street tires is that they are easier to slide. Granted, it's not the fastest way around the track, but it sure is a lot of fun!
About getting disaster manangement skills... Try doing some autocrosses. You can learn some fairly low speed spin recovery skills in a very safe environment. Granted, things are different at higher speeds, but at least you will have some base of skills to draw upon.
If you have to ask the question, you should probably switch back to street tires.
The long answer...
You should be able to get a good feel of what the car is doing via your butt and also the steering wheel. If you don't have that feel yet, you might want to consider using street tires so that you also get the aural clues.
The odds are pretty good, though, that you really aren't pushing the limits yet if you have only 3 days of experience and your speeds wouldn't be appreciably different in street tires or R-compounds. I'd recommend switching back to street tires so that you can get the benefit of the tire screech to help you learn when you are near the limit.
Another nice thing of the street tires is that they are easier to slide. Granted, it's not the fastest way around the track, but it sure is a lot of fun!
About getting disaster manangement skills... Try doing some autocrosses. You can learn some fairly low speed spin recovery skills in a very safe environment. Granted, things are different at higher speeds, but at least you will have some base of skills to draw upon.
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06-13-2003, 03:25 PM
#8
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Scott
I think Eric's advice is very sound. Use up a set of street tires learning -- you'll be going plenty fast -- and then switch to the R's. One of the reasons I chose a 200hp car to race is that I have trouble maintaining momentum, I tend to overbrake, so this will force me to carry mo and be smooth.
Steve
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Eric,
As a newer member of HWFM Racing, I hate to criticize you post, but I feel I must. Your methods run counter to the HWFM Racing Team philosophy, and may actually, in the long term, make Scott a faster (ie, worse) driver. "Slow in, slow out, slow down the straights" is the technique that we should be striving for. I'm wondering why, in light of the above, HWFM Racing actually needs or even wants a Chief Driving Instructor, let alone, one with your bad attitude and good driving skills. Keep up this sort of thing, and Scott may find himself on the dreaded podium some day. Bad, bad, bad.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This is a conundrum that is increasingly vexing the team.
I pondered it for many weeks last night.
To find the answer, we must turn to the East and Zen philosophy.
"Our Goal is to go slowly as quickly as possible". Each teammate must discover the meaning for him or herself.
(By the way, good job quoting the Chief Instructor his own lesson. You learn fast, Grasshopper)
I think Eric's advice is very sound. Use up a set of street tires learning -- you'll be going plenty fast -- and then switch to the R's. One of the reasons I chose a 200hp car to race is that I have trouble maintaining momentum, I tend to overbrake, so this will force me to carry mo and be smooth.
Steve
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Eric,
As a newer member of HWFM Racing, I hate to criticize you post, but I feel I must. Your methods run counter to the HWFM Racing Team philosophy, and may actually, in the long term, make Scott a faster (ie, worse) driver. "Slow in, slow out, slow down the straights" is the technique that we should be striving for. I'm wondering why, in light of the above, HWFM Racing actually needs or even wants a Chief Driving Instructor, let alone, one with your bad attitude and good driving skills. Keep up this sort of thing, and Scott may find himself on the dreaded podium some day. Bad, bad, bad.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This is a conundrum that is increasingly vexing the team.
I pondered it for many weeks last night.
To find the answer, we must turn to the East and Zen philosophy.
"Our Goal is to go slowly as quickly as possible". Each teammate must discover the meaning for him or herself.
(By the way, good job quoting the Chief Instructor his own lesson. You learn fast, Grasshopper)
06-13-2003, 03:25 PM
#9
Drifting
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ScottMellor:
<strong>My observation (from my lofty vantage point of 3 track days)is that absolute beginners and very experienced people seem to be pretty safe.
It's the intermediates who have learned how to go fast, but have little disaster management skills who are having problems.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Trust me...from the instructor's seat, your observation is SPOT ON!
<strong>My observation (from my lofty vantage point of 3 track days)is that absolute beginners and very experienced people seem to be pretty safe.
It's the intermediates who have learned how to go fast, but have little disaster management skills who are having problems.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Trust me...from the instructor's seat, your observation is SPOT ON!
06-13-2003, 03:51 PM
#10
Drifting
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Brian: Thanks. My gut tells me I'm OK on R's, but my Inner ***** has reservations. It just seems optimistic to me to be ready for R's after three days.
I am joining the local Porsche Owners Club and getting into their "short track series". It is run at the Streets Of Willow and also includes some auto-crosses.
Steve has actually agreed to caddy, er I mean pit for me in exchange for beer and Geritol.
I am joining the local Porsche Owners Club and getting into their "short track series". It is run at the Streets Of Willow and also includes some auto-crosses.
Steve has actually agreed to caddy, er I mean pit for me in exchange for beer and Geritol.
06-13-2003, 04:10 PM
#11
Scott, I hear ya about the inner-P...
I've been on street tires for 30 days and R-compounds for 3 days, and I know that I wasn't getting everything I could out of the street tires.
It's really whatever you feel comfortable with.
Just remember the big thing the R-compound gives you is a lot of extra grip. So, if you are early apexing a bit, you'll be able to turn in the car at the exit a bit more with that extra grip and also because you are going relatively slowly. As you pick up the speed, it's going to be more of a problem. The street tires would make the problem much more obvious and at a lower speed.
Similarly, if you are coming off of a long straight and the car is very unbalanced, the R-compounds might help you make the turn-in (again due to the relatively low speeds). As you pick up the speeds, it's going to be a problem.
Either way, street compounds or R-compounds, the car is going to tell you what is going on via the feel. The question that only you can answer is, "are you listening to the car?" If you have a good sense of what the car is doing and how well it is balanced, then you can really put any tire on there.
If you don't have that feel yet (it took me about 25 days to get it, but I'm a slow learner), then I'd recommend staying with the street tires because they'll give you some audio clues of what's going on. Plus, they'll keep the speed down and they allow larger margins of error. All in all, the street tires are perfect learning tires.
If you want an answer of when you should switch, I'd say when you are comfortable with throttle steering and trail braking, and knowing when/why you would want to do either.
I've been on street tires for 30 days and R-compounds for 3 days, and I know that I wasn't getting everything I could out of the street tires.
It's really whatever you feel comfortable with.
Just remember the big thing the R-compound gives you is a lot of extra grip. So, if you are early apexing a bit, you'll be able to turn in the car at the exit a bit more with that extra grip and also because you are going relatively slowly. As you pick up the speed, it's going to be more of a problem. The street tires would make the problem much more obvious and at a lower speed.
Similarly, if you are coming off of a long straight and the car is very unbalanced, the R-compounds might help you make the turn-in (again due to the relatively low speeds). As you pick up the speeds, it's going to be a problem.
Either way, street compounds or R-compounds, the car is going to tell you what is going on via the feel. The question that only you can answer is, "are you listening to the car?" If you have a good sense of what the car is doing and how well it is balanced, then you can really put any tire on there.
If you don't have that feel yet (it took me about 25 days to get it, but I'm a slow learner), then I'd recommend staying with the street tires because they'll give you some audio clues of what's going on. Plus, they'll keep the speed down and they allow larger margins of error. All in all, the street tires are perfect learning tires.
If you want an answer of when you should switch, I'd say when you are comfortable with throttle steering and trail braking, and knowing when/why you would want to do either.
06-13-2003, 04:59 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Scott,
You are getting some great advice here. You & Bryan are right on the money, the "yellows" are usually the ones we see spinning off the track <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> & occasionally, an instructor pushing a little to deep in the braking zone
When you get to the point where you can comfortably corner the car with the throttle & really enjoy it <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> you are ready for the "R"s. I would save them for now until you can really enjoy & appreciate them. Have fun!
You are getting some great advice here. You & Bryan are right on the money, the "yellows" are usually the ones we see spinning off the track <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> & occasionally, an instructor pushing a little to deep in the braking zone
When you get to the point where you can comfortably corner the car with the throttle & really enjoy it <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> you are ready for the "R"s. I would save them for now until you can really enjoy & appreciate them. Have fun!
06-13-2003, 05:04 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Scott,
Its an actual cocktail called "Beeritol", and it consists of 3:1 beer:Geritol. Quite tasty, and gets your zinger going, if you get my drift. Oh... there's a little play on words for you.
Its an actual cocktail called "Beeritol", and it consists of 3:1 beer:Geritol. Quite tasty, and gets your zinger going, if you get my drift. Oh... there's a little play on words for you.
06-13-2003, 05:17 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Mike,
I'm working on absorbing that Zen stuff. Very cool. If that doesn't slow you down, you're not doing it right.
I think I know how to solve the "Eric" problem. It's mainly his title of "Chief Driving Instructor" that is counter to HWFM Racing guiding principles. What is needed is something to slow these hotshoes down a little, not give them the means or desire to go faster. If Eric could be persuaded to change his title to "Spin Doctor", I'd think I could be persuaded to drop this senseless vendetta.
I'm working on absorbing that Zen stuff. Very cool. If that doesn't slow you down, you're not doing it right.
I think I know how to solve the "Eric" problem. It's mainly his title of "Chief Driving Instructor" that is counter to HWFM Racing guiding principles. What is needed is something to slow these hotshoes down a little, not give them the means or desire to go faster. If Eric could be persuaded to change his title to "Spin Doctor", I'd think I could be persuaded to drop this senseless vendetta.
06-13-2003, 05:23 PM
#15
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Scott,
Great thread. I switched to R-compound P-Zero C's after the first two DE's on S-02's. Unlike Hoosiers, the P-Zero C's still squeal a bunch at the limit and, therefore, offer good feedback about your traction limits. I've now run 4 DE's on the Pirellis, and might switch to Hoosiers soon.
So, you might consider a "middle ground", belted, street-suitable R-compound as a transition tire. It's a lot more fun than a regular street tire. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
BTW, I've always suspected that the intermediate stage is the most dangerous - as we often say in medicine, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
Great thread. I switched to R-compound P-Zero C's after the first two DE's on S-02's. Unlike Hoosiers, the P-Zero C's still squeal a bunch at the limit and, therefore, offer good feedback about your traction limits. I've now run 4 DE's on the Pirellis, and might switch to Hoosiers soon.
So, you might consider a "middle ground", belted, street-suitable R-compound as a transition tire. It's a lot more fun than a regular street tire. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
BTW, I've always suspected that the intermediate stage is the most dangerous - as we often say in medicine, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".