Alan Herod

Since this topic seemed to be emotive - or something like that, I thought about time to focus on the issue. Hopefully this won't evolve into making value judgements about other posters because of differences of opinion. In our region we are studying ways that we can improve our program.

The question is should an instructor drive an instructed student's car on the track?

There are a number of sub topics -- should an instructor drive a beginner's car for the first couple of laps to demonstrate the line, check general condition, talk the student around the track, whatever....

Should an instructor drive an intermediate, instructed student's car their first time together?

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Vinny '98 3.8 C2S

&lt;&lt;The question is should an instructor drive an instructed student's car on the track?&gt;&gt;

Metro region recommends this, and I agree. I think it's important to drive a new or "instructed" student's car the first time for a couple of laps, primarily to insure that everything is in proper working order. It's also a good time to discuss line, point out where the flag stations are, seating position, and other points while the student isn't occupied by driving.

&lt;&lt;Should an instructor drive an intermediate, instructed student's car their first time together? &gt;&gt;

I normally leave that up to the student, unless I have some questions about the car's behavior after driving with the student.

Bill Gregory

Based on some of the other forum discussions, the instructor driving the beginning student's car for the first few laps seems to be more a Eastern (Northeastern?) instructional technique and less so a Western instructional technique (if I can broadly generalize). CVR and North Country PCA regions, and the Connecticut Valley BMWCCA region, in addition to Metro, as Vinny pointed out, do this, and I'm sure there are others. Vinny mentioned why this is good. I'm with Vinny too on the intermediate student - it's their call if they want me to drive. Typically, however, I just get in and we go.

wasteg8

I've found that one of the great benefits of driving a beginning student's car for the first 2-3 laps is the chance to identify flag stations. They're drilled in the classroom sessions about the meaning of the various flags--but once behind the wheel, tunnel vision often takes over and flags go unnoticed. A few easy laps with the student in the right seat takes some of the pressure off and allows them to see the big picture. Besides, I like to feel for myself what issues there may be with the car I'll be spending the day in!
A larger issue, it seems, is when it's appropriate to take the student out for a ride in YOUR car. This has spurred a good deal of debate within the various clubs I run with in the Northeast--and there's no consensus. Some chief instructors discourage it in all but a few instances--others think it's an integral part of the learning curve. I tend to hold off until the student begins to grasp some of the more advanced concepts of car control--then try to teach by example. (and not embarass myself!)

Dbltime

Yes. Huge benefit for a Novice run group student.

Great teaching tool.

Alan Herod

From what I have seen thus far, we seem to be in consensus, pretty much on the EAst Coast anyway. I am grouping Potomac and Chesapeake together here, since many or us are duel members. It seemed from the other thread that the concept was less then universally embraced. The last one, Vinny, 'get a feel for the student's car' ties into the idea of "buddy preflighting" -- cursory tech/grid tech certainly doesn't catch everything.

In order to take a student out in our car, we get approval from the chief instructor, and we are only permitted to take them out in one run group higher then their normal run group.

I appreciate all the inputs and am still looking for some dissenters with objective comments.

BrianKeithSmith

I tend to disagree a little on this. When I was a beginner, I begged to be taken out in any instructor's car - especially instructors that I knew personally.

I would sit back and just focus on the marks, the line, how the instructor reacted to various situations, etc, and in my opinion I feel like it helped me out alot. During the course of a day I would basically double my time on the track, simply by riding with either my instructor, or another instructor who didn't mind a passenger.

In my opinion it was a big help. One group here in the Southeast doesn't allow any students to ride with any instructors in the instructor run sessions. And if you look at the people that attend their events, it takes them longer to progress through the run groups and move from Green to Blue, etc. I think its simply due to a lack of seat time.

If a student wants to ride and learn, and the instructor doesn't mind - I say let the student ride.

Simply my opinion.

Brian

Alan Herod

Brian I suspect that we are encouraged to do this and I enjoy doing it, but I am not aware of any additional regional policy beside run group and chief instructor approval. Personally I believe this is important to progress as is asking another instructor to ride with you, or riding with another instructor. Track time is key.

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>we are only permitted to take them out in one run group higher then their normal run group.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We used to take students out in the instuctors run group, however, we found that, for the most part, they spent more time hanging on for dear life rather than gaining much from it. So we ask students not to ask for rides in the instructor run group, rather, if the instructor feels there's a benefit to taking the student out in their car, they'll do that in one run group higher than the students run group.

Vinny '98 3.8 C2S

[quote]Originally posted by Bill Gregory:
<strong>
We used to take students out in the instuctors run group, however, we found that, for the most part, they spent more time hanging on for dear life rather than gaining much from it. So we ask students not to ask for rides in the instructor run group, rather, if the instructor feels there's a benefit to taking the student out in their car, they'll do that in one run group higher than the students run group.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's a good idea. We normally take students out in our own run group in Metro, although the chief instructor is very flexible within reason, so I'm pretty sure he would OK this if an instructor requested it.
A problem in the faster run groups, in addition to keeping the student's attention at very high speeds, is that I'm also pretty busy just driving. In a lower run group, you can pretty much cruise, while paying plenty of attention to the student. I'm going to try this next season. I just never thought of it before. IMO, I would go up two run groups if the student was in green, just so he or she can have some sense of the car handling at speed.

There are also certain cases, where a good student just wants to see what it's like at "full" throttle. I'm also not averse to this, especially with intermediate students, because I remember not being able to wipe the smile off my face when I went for my first couple of fast rides. I don't think it's a real good time for instruction, unless it's a more advanced student, but there's nothing wrong with adding just that much more fun to a student's day. It could put the final hook in.

Karl S

I would agree with the approach Bill suggests. I had a student this year at Watkins Glen who came up to my car while I was in line waiting to go out and asked for a ride. I had instructed him a couple weeks before at Summit Point and he had done fine.

So I took him out in Black and drove at my usual pace. We didn't talk much during the run because I didn't have time to hook up the communicator but we spent about 15 minutes back in the garage debriefing. One thing I kept trying to emphasize was for him not to immediately go out and try to drive at the same pace as I had done.

I found out later that in his very next session he first went off in the toe of the boot, then got so flustered that he came back on track going the wrong way up the laces! After his instructor got him straightened out, they went into the pits to get him settled down and then came out again. He was all over the place and missing his marks badly, so his instructor brought him in and ended the day.

Several lessons here for me. One, don't take out someone else's student, at least not without their knowledge and approval. Two, take them out in a lower run group and don't go anywhere near 10/10 ths. Focus on showing them the line, braking and turn in points, where to get on the power, etc. Don't worry about lap times. Three, if you're going to take someone out, plan it in advance, don't do it as a last minute thing.

It's ok to take other instructors out for a ride in an instructor run group but I don't think students should be out there.

Karl

Barry Lenoble

Hello,

Some good point brought up so far.

A few comments / questions.

Regarding driving intermediate students' car's, has the student driven this track before? If not, I
will usually drive for two laps, just to show them the way around. If they have driven the track before, I won't volunteer to drive, but I will if they ask me to.

Regarding taking students for rides, I do not volunteer that either. If the student asks, I will, but I will explain very carefully to them what I am doing, etc. Taking students for rides can be a great benefit, or it can be dangerous, it all depends on the student.

From the passenger seat, the student can reall see what you mean when you say 'hit the apex', 'smooth = fast', 'brake in a straight line' etc. I have had students who had a hard time tracking all the way out after a corner. One short ride with them, and they get it. I have also had students who drove extremely poorly after riding with me (I hope it was not because they were scared) and I needed to talk to them about the dangers of driving over your ability.

I vidily remember my first ride in an instructor's car. It was at the end of my first track day, when I had no more runs, so I couldn't do any damage to my self. I strapped into the passenger seat and he took down the front straight at Bridgehampton. I was sure we were not going to make T1. After a few laps I realized that we weren't going to wreck in every corner and I could enjoy the ride. I had no idea that a car could go so fast! I was hooked after that.

In case anyone cares, my first instructor was John McKiernan. It was in 1994, in a mid 80's 911, at Bridgehampton.

Barry

J richard

I have always found riding with an experienced driver an enlightening experience. I make it a point of riding with the best I can find and having them ride with me. Several times I have asked if they would take me around in my car, specifically to watch their car placment and braking zones, and secondly to get their opinion on the setup of the car. It always helps.

However I am particular about who I will let drive my car as well as particular about who I will get in a car with. Watching how they drive, are they fast, smooth, fluid, or pounding around the track forcing a line on the ragged edge lets me know if it is someone who's opinion I'll respect.
Also, it takes a great deal of seat time to develop proper technique relative to a particular car. I'm only interested in dealing with someone who has a bunch more seat time in the same model, otherwise they may be the ones learning (as demonstrated on a previous post).

Driving and being driven are parts of the learning expereince, but common sense, experience, and the right attitude are critical.I won't go near an instructor (or a driver on the track) who dosen't demonstrate all three.

This is the same philosophy I have had in flying as well. If the guy next to you does something stupid or is showing off, you don't just bend sheetmetal, you're dead...best land and look elsewhere...

gregm

I began DE with the BMWCCA New York chapter at Bridgehampton. Thier policy at the time, 1996, was for the instuctors to take thier students out in the first instuctor run group which was the first session of the day. It was a little scary at first but at least you get to see the track before driving it with your instructor, who would also drive the first two laps of your sesion to evaluate the car. It should be noted that the instructors did not drive 10/10ths in the first session, and did a lot of talking about the track, turn in points, apex, flag staions etc.

The BMWCCA also encourages students to go for rides with insructors as part of the learning experience. But as was stated before, all instructors are not created equal. In the begining of my DE life I drove with a few instructors who were definitely on the hairy edge, so I spent most of the session holding on for dear life. Was it a learning experience? Yes, be carefull of who you ride with.

I take my students out for rides, but not in the red or black run group, I prefer to go white. I feel that it is a valuable method of showing thae correct line to a student who 'doesnt get it'.

I do only PCA events now, due to the fact that the NY chapter of BMWCCA does not have a DE program since the demise of the Bridge.

GhettoRacer

[quote]Originally posted by Bill Gregory:
<strong>
We used to take students out in the instuctors run group, however, we found that, for the most part, they spent more time hanging on for dear life rather than gaining much from it. So we ask students not to ask for rides in the instructor run group, rather, if the instructor feels there's a benefit to taking the student out in their car, they'll do that in one run group higher than the students run group.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is where constant communications help. Tell the students what you're doing, tell them to relax, and imagine as if they were driving. Tell them to visualize the lines, and constantly look ahead. Ask them to feel how the car is loading up and unloading... and most of all, ask if they're feeling comfortable. Would they like to be let out? Or perhaps they just need you to slow down a notch? If they're just hanging on for dear life, it really doesn't do them any good.

In fact, it was the discussion of communications that got me into trouble on some of these threads... where I mentioned I had some oversteering in a students car. I was trying to explain that due to the constant communications, the students did not freak out. And they consequently learned that, one can make some mistakes and fully recover. People totally missed the point I wanted to demonstrate which was how communications can make all the difference; not sliding student's car.

When I drive students car, I make sure it is a useful learning experience for them. It's not just a joy ride for me...

And probably to the dismay some of the guys here, I've recently driven F360 Modena F1, F355 Berlitina manual, BMW Z8 (at 3500 lbs, one may think it's not a true sports car, but more like a GT. but if you think of it as a M5 that's 500 lbs lighter, then you will start to really appreciate it), a Corvette C5 (not a Z06, but supercharged to about 480 wheel hp and 490 wheel ft-lbs), a classic ~71 911T, a BMW E36 M3 with sorted suspension... We also had a gentleman with a 996 TT with X50. Certainly I will be looking forward to a little seat time in that.

Is it true that X50 makes close to 500 hp??

Oops, back to topic. I think:

1. instructor driving student's car at low-mid speed for orientation laps and/or checking out make sure car is safe is good. highly recommended.

2. instructor driving their own car giving student rides at speed. can be VERY entertaining and a useful education for the student... if done right. highly recommended. at the least it's a ride the student won't soon forget. done well, it is a very useful and educational experience.

3. instructor driving students car out side of orientation laps... very debatable. recomended, if approched the correct way. i think the club policy should be open, as it really is something between the particular student and instructors. there are always precedences to make pros/cons of this. how hard to push the students car should be arranged between the instructor and student.

again, just IMO, YMMV.

PS, even when giving a ride, building a good rapport is helpful. ask how long the students have been driving, if they were working on any areas in particular (ie, lines, input smoothness, or balancing the car, or threshold braking ... etc. etc.)