Driving Beginner Student's car
12-16-2002, 11:09 AM
#17
Race Director
As a student I never had an instructor drive my car nor did a ride with an instructor.
As an instructor I have only driven a student once and dhat was in their car.
Here is the situation.
My student was an intermediate student and had been on this track a few times before. He had driven on this track and others both with and without instructors. On this day I was to instruct him.
First session out I realized that bascily outbraking himself in most corners and generally not using the cars potential properly. Basicly driving too hard for too little result. He was clearly working very hard and not being smooth and therefore had very slow lap times (informal wife timming system
).
Anyway I tried to explain to him where he was making his mistakes, but was unable to communicate these to him. I decided to take him our in his car for 2 reasons.
1) To show him where the line was and braking points and such
2) To show him in which corners he was using only 10% of the car's capabilites.
Now I felt good about this since he was driving a 944 Turbo and I had plenty of time in my NA. The basic handleing charateristics are much the same and I felt I could be easy on the car to be safe and still give him the right feel. Also since my car was race car I felt that him feeling my car might not be usefull since it could appear so different to the student.
Well I took him out his next run group for 4-5 laps to show him the line and have him see how the car feels in each corner. My speeds were no more than 7/10th as I was really unconcerned about overall speed and was talking the entire time giving him a verbal of what I was doing. I then brought the car in and we swaped places and he went out again for the rest of his group. By the end of the 20 min he had picked up all nearly everything I had told him and showed him.
He was smooth and comfortable and drove with considerably less effort. Unofficial stopwatch times also showed him to have pick-up 5 seconds.
Overall I found it to be very useful for him in that case.
I have never driven a students car since. I think it is only usefull if your student cannot seem to get it. If you talk and talk and still can't get the car to feel right then you need to let the student know what it is to feel right.
In any event a student riding with instructor should always be geared toward learning and the instructor should drive at sufficiently slow pace so that their line and braking points are spot on each time around to drill that into the students head.
I also use the first warm-up lap and cool down to get the student to focus on line rather than speed since the cars are going slow they should only need to focus on that.
As an instructor I have only driven a student once and dhat was in their car.
Here is the situation.
My student was an intermediate student and had been on this track a few times before. He had driven on this track and others both with and without instructors. On this day I was to instruct him.
First session out I realized that bascily outbraking himself in most corners and generally not using the cars potential properly. Basicly driving too hard for too little result. He was clearly working very hard and not being smooth and therefore had very slow lap times (informal wife timming system
). Anyway I tried to explain to him where he was making his mistakes, but was unable to communicate these to him. I decided to take him our in his car for 2 reasons.
1) To show him where the line was and braking points and such
2) To show him in which corners he was using only 10% of the car's capabilites.
Now I felt good about this since he was driving a 944 Turbo and I had plenty of time in my NA. The basic handleing charateristics are much the same and I felt I could be easy on the car to be safe and still give him the right feel. Also since my car was race car I felt that him feeling my car might not be usefull since it could appear so different to the student.
Well I took him out his next run group for 4-5 laps to show him the line and have him see how the car feels in each corner. My speeds were no more than 7/10th as I was really unconcerned about overall speed and was talking the entire time giving him a verbal of what I was doing. I then brought the car in and we swaped places and he went out again for the rest of his group. By the end of the 20 min he had picked up all nearly everything I had told him and showed him.
He was smooth and comfortable and drove with considerably less effort. Unofficial stopwatch times also showed him to have pick-up 5 seconds.
Overall I found it to be very useful for him in that case.
I have never driven a students car since. I think it is only usefull if your student cannot seem to get it. If you talk and talk and still can't get the car to feel right then you need to let the student know what it is to feel right.
In any event a student riding with instructor should always be geared toward learning and the instructor should drive at sufficiently slow pace so that their line and braking points are spot on each time around to drill that into the students head.
I also use the first warm-up lap and cool down to get the student to focus on line rather than speed since the cars are going slow they should only need to focus on that.
12-16-2002, 03:47 PM
#18
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[quote]Originally posted by pig4bill:
<strong>Instructors at SCCA competition schools don't drive your car, so this bit about needing to drive it for "tech inspection" sounds like BS to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The SCCA comp school probably has a more homogeneous student population than a DE. At DE's we get everyone from students who could build their cars from the ground up to students who know very, very, little about how their cars should feel while on the track.
In these test rides I've found warped rotors on one car and an oil pressure guage that was malfunctioning on another. Should these problems have been found when the students had the cars tech'd? Absolutely, but for whatever reasons they weren't.
It also puts me that much more at ease after I've taken the car for a couple of laps, knowing that the car is functioning properly.
<strong>Instructors at SCCA competition schools don't drive your car, so this bit about needing to drive it for "tech inspection" sounds like BS to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The SCCA comp school probably has a more homogeneous student population than a DE. At DE's we get everyone from students who could build their cars from the ground up to students who know very, very, little about how their cars should feel while on the track.
In these test rides I've found warped rotors on one car and an oil pressure guage that was malfunctioning on another. Should these problems have been found when the students had the cars tech'd? Absolutely, but for whatever reasons they weren't.
It also puts me that much more at ease after I've taken the car for a couple of laps, knowing that the car is functioning properly.
12-16-2002, 10:46 PM
#19
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Good thread!
I went from being a student to an instructor in less than 2 years so I can remember what it feels like to be a struggling student.
Although I had owned and driven quite a few high performance sports cars (including a '94 turbo 3.6), I didn't know that my newly built 944turbo track car had MAJOR suspension set-up problems. I struggled through several weekends before an instructor asked to drive my car.
After 1/2 lap, my instructor instantly was able to identify a major set-up problem and once corrected my lap times decreased dramatically while my driving enjoyment went through the roof.
If my instructor had never asked to drive my car, I may still be fighting my car today. So my advice is that if your student is driving anything that is more than mildly modified, take a few laps and see how the car works before beginning to critique. Your student probebly can't tell what the car is doing and may be doing his best just to keep it on the track.
I went from being a student to an instructor in less than 2 years so I can remember what it feels like to be a struggling student.
Although I had owned and driven quite a few high performance sports cars (including a '94 turbo 3.6), I didn't know that my newly built 944turbo track car had MAJOR suspension set-up problems. I struggled through several weekends before an instructor asked to drive my car.
After 1/2 lap, my instructor instantly was able to identify a major set-up problem and once corrected my lap times decreased dramatically while my driving enjoyment went through the roof.
If my instructor had never asked to drive my car, I may still be fighting my car today. So my advice is that if your student is driving anything that is more than mildly modified, take a few laps and see how the car works before beginning to critique. Your student probebly can't tell what the car is doing and may be doing his best just to keep it on the track.
12-17-2002, 12:08 AM
#20
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Thanks for the objective feedback.
[quote]Originally posted by pig4bill:
<strong>Instructors at SCCA competition schools don't drive your car, so this bit about needing to drive it for "tech inspection" sounds like BS to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting observation. I have been through the SCCA licensing process twice with almost twenty years and South East Asia separating the first licensing from the second, and very little has changed. I'm a fan of SCCA racing but licensing school should not be confused with DE, I never had an instructor in the car with me in SCCA.
Not sure where the BS part came from. Many of the things that you find by driving a car will not show up in tech, or they will manifest themselves in ways that you will not expect. This fall, at VIR, I asked the student if he would mind if I could get another instructor to drive his car, because my student was well over six feet and the seat was bolted to the floor. Before I encourage a student to go faster, I want to be sure that his machine is up to the task.
[quote]Originally posted by pig4bill:
<strong>Instructors at SCCA competition schools don't drive your car, so this bit about needing to drive it for "tech inspection" sounds like BS to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting observation. I have been through the SCCA licensing process twice with almost twenty years and South East Asia separating the first licensing from the second, and very little has changed. I'm a fan of SCCA racing but licensing school should not be confused with DE, I never had an instructor in the car with me in SCCA.
Not sure where the BS part came from. Many of the things that you find by driving a car will not show up in tech, or they will manifest themselves in ways that you will not expect. This fall, at VIR, I asked the student if he would mind if I could get another instructor to drive his car, because my student was well over six feet and the seat was bolted to the floor. Before I encourage a student to go faster, I want to be sure that his machine is up to the task.
12-17-2002, 08:09 AM
#21
Drifting
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[quote]Originally posted by Vinny '98 3.8 C2S:
<strong>The SCCA comp school probably has a more homogeneous student population than a DE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope. I got my SCCA license about two months ago in the first school. Each instructor had two students, guess what experience the other student who shared my instructor had? One 8 lap Richard Petty Driving Experience at Charlotte.
There were some other students in other cars too who had never been on the track before.
E. J.
<strong>The SCCA comp school probably has a more homogeneous student population than a DE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope. I got my SCCA license about two months ago in the first school. Each instructor had two students, guess what experience the other student who shared my instructor had? One 8 lap Richard Petty Driving Experience at Charlotte.
There were some other students in other cars too who had never been on the track before.
E. J.
12-21-2002, 03:09 AM
#22
Burning Brakes
[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>
Nope. I got my SCCA license about two months ago in the first school. Each instructor had two students, guess what experience the other student who shared my instructor had? One 8 lap Richard Petty Driving Experience at Charlotte.
There were some other students in other cars too who had never been on the track before.
E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Unless you were tremendously fortunate enough that your region ran Solo II on a real track (I was), there was no way to get on the track in the Bad Old Days before DE's. The only way was to spend big dollars for Bondurant, et al (Bondurant cost more than our first car) or SCCA driver's school.
Yet somehow I don't remember any bloody carnage or flaming tracks littered with wreckage with all the rooks on track.
<strong>
Nope. I got my SCCA license about two months ago in the first school. Each instructor had two students, guess what experience the other student who shared my instructor had? One 8 lap Richard Petty Driving Experience at Charlotte.
There were some other students in other cars too who had never been on the track before.
E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Unless you were tremendously fortunate enough that your region ran Solo II on a real track (I was), there was no way to get on the track in the Bad Old Days before DE's. The only way was to spend big dollars for Bondurant, et al (Bondurant cost more than our first car) or SCCA driver's school.
Yet somehow I don't remember any bloody carnage or flaming tracks littered with wreckage with all the rooks on track.
12-21-2002, 09:23 AM
#23
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[quote]Originally posted by pig4bill:
<strong>Yet somehow I don't remember any bloody carnage or flaming tracks littered with wreckage with all the rooks on track.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right Pig4bill. Interesting that we were all driving real race cars and no actual contact with eachother or with any walls. Lots of cars in the gravel, but pretty harmless stuff. Especially cool when you take into account that the majorty were track rookies. Sure there was a large speed difference in cars - even in the same classes, but still, no contact or wrecks in our school. I guess that people (students) just took it more seriously than at a DE in street cars. Worth even further analysis is that most of the accidents that happen at DEs occur in the groups of drivers with at least some if not a lot of track experience. Hmmmmmmmm... And, none of the race cars at the school had instructors in the car either - Hmmmmmmm...
If interested, you can see pics from the drivers school <a href="http://www.pcarracing.homestead.com/SCCADriversSchool.html" target="_blank">here</a> . I'm in white SRF #4.
E. J.
<strong>Yet somehow I don't remember any bloody carnage or flaming tracks littered with wreckage with all the rooks on track.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right Pig4bill. Interesting that we were all driving real race cars and no actual contact with eachother or with any walls. Lots of cars in the gravel, but pretty harmless stuff. Especially cool when you take into account that the majorty were track rookies. Sure there was a large speed difference in cars - even in the same classes, but still, no contact or wrecks in our school. I guess that people (students) just took it more seriously than at a DE in street cars. Worth even further analysis is that most of the accidents that happen at DEs occur in the groups of drivers with at least some if not a lot of track experience. Hmmmmmmmm... And, none of the race cars at the school had instructors in the car either - Hmmmmmmm...
If interested, you can see pics from the drivers school <a href="http://www.pcarracing.homestead.com/SCCADriversSchool.html" target="_blank">here</a> . I'm in white SRF #4.
E. J.