What is 10/10ths?
12-07-2002, 10:45 AM
#46
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Ultimate 10/10ths is Ayrton Senna's qualifying lap At Monaco Grand Prix.
The one in the 80's where he was like 2 seconds faster than Alain Prost (with same car).
The one in the 80's where he was like 2 seconds faster than Alain Prost (with same car).
12-07-2002, 12:03 PM
#47
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[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>Ultimate 10/10ths is Ayrton Senna's qualifying lap At Monaco Grand Prix.
The one in the 80's where he was like 2 seconds faster than Alain Prost (with same car).</strong><hr></blockquote>
In the rain.
<strong>Ultimate 10/10ths is Ayrton Senna's qualifying lap At Monaco Grand Prix.
The one in the 80's where he was like 2 seconds faster than Alain Prost (with same car).</strong><hr></blockquote>
In the rain.
12-07-2002, 01:22 PM
#48
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[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>Ultimate 10/10ths is Ayrton Senna's qualifying lap At Monaco Grand Prix.
The one in the 80's where he was like 2 seconds faster than Alain Prost (with same car).</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Senna is my favorite driver! The man has crazy qualifying poles.
<strong>Ultimate 10/10ths is Ayrton Senna's qualifying lap At Monaco Grand Prix.
The one in the 80's where he was like 2 seconds faster than Alain Prost (with same car).</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Senna is my favorite driver! The man has crazy qualifying poles.
12-07-2002, 02:18 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>
See, that is exactly the opposite of what I was saying. Properly set up, you don't have that. Of course, an LSD helps, which the SE-R has. Adding a Quaife to the car is good for about a second a lap.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't mix the two paragraphs I wrote. I was not saying my car is a pushing pig. My car setup is very neutral; why do think some call me a wreckless driver? They see the rear end dances around and they think I'm losing control. IMO, properly setup momentum FWD are very easy/relaxing to drive once you get used them. My car actually has a slight understeer right now. I'm experiencing an interesting thing right now. The balance was 100% neutral with less grippy tires, now even just on good street tires (Falken Azenis) the balance of the car is slight push. FWIF spec of the car is -3f -2.5r camber, zero toe front and back, 560 lbs/" front and back, cheap KYB AGX adjustable shocks, decently sized sway bars front and back (24 mm and 19 mm). I'm going to up the rear rate to help it rotate. It's a daily driven car so I'm a bit hesitant to upgrade the rear. Comfort level of the rear rate is already near the edge for street use.
If I can't drive anywhere near the limit, why would Toyo reps happily agreeing to sponsor me some RA1's after they rode with me at Infineon recently? They wouldn't want a reckless/arrogant/dangerous guy that have no clue of the limit representing their product would they?
There was a big National Factory Five (429 replica) race at the last NASA Infineon event. Many of them have never been on the track before. I drove several of them on the track to share what I know. Some of these guys are very experienced. Brian Cates used to race along side PD, Pobst (I think) in IMSA Firehawk CRX's. He tell me to get my butt out on track and race. And if I make it to VIR to have fun at a enduro or East Coast Honda Challenge, he'll have no problem vouching my my decent speed and safe driving approch.
What's below isn't directly towards you Geo, just some general comments. For whatever reason people think sliding is a big no no. And DE's one should never go beyond 8/9 10th? How are you suppose to be a better driver if you don't get close to the limit? You will never learn to drive at/near the limit unless you get comfortable near it. You only try to go 10/10th if you're racing? Most race sessions are much shorter than open track/DE events.
IMO, Any seat time is VERY valuable, and when it's in my car, I aim for 10/10th, while still hold safety as #1 priority. So 10/10th is a mental state, I'm pushing as hard as my abilities allows me. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm getting 100% out of the car, just that I'm trying. One reason I get bored of my cars is the performance envelop are relatively little. Many have told me I just need to go w2w. A race is a race no matter what relative speed. I get a bigger kick out of driving different cars at moderate speed (say 7-8.5/10th). I did some 7/10th laps at Infineon with a new track friend/student's Cosworth Escort (bone stock). We both enjoyed it tremendously and he would happily let me do it again any time. I've had more than enough seat time in my own car. The passengers enjoy the ride more than I enjoy to drive my car. As a matter of fact, Dean was messing around with me and black flagged me to give different people rides. Treadway is one of the coolest track guys I know... and he makes for a very cool looking dracula.
I'm glad I got couple of email me directly telling me they know exactly what I'm talking about. One can drive at the limit and still be in control. I am a bit surprised that most don't agree. Even coming from guys I think are pretty good drivers... but while I don't agree with their opinion, I respect them. Unlike a lot of you who are taking personal jabs and low blows, which I lose respect for you. You know who you are.
My instructing approch may be different than others, and my results shows. My students (especially) track virgins are consistantly the fastest guy in their group, stays online (because they recognize quickly why they need to learn th line fast before they can safely go fast), and are very safe. They hardly ever spun. I've had 2-3 (out of easily 150+ people I've worked with) of my students spun, with me instructing them in the passenger seat giving them real time instruction. And I can tell you they lost it because they did not follow my command. Typical spin scenerio, I tell them to slow way down approch the turn in, they barely use any brakes and they go in a little hot, and turn in too fast/abruptly, causing the tail to step out. They could all be easily saved, if they got over the mental fact that you need to use the throttle to balance the car. They would counter (sometimes I put my hands on the wheel to help to counter), and I'm telling them "gas, gas, gas", and they never even got on the gas. Now you can make the argument I should not have let them get there in the 1st place, or IMO it was 100% the student's fault for not applying what I'm telling them. If they had slowed down enough in the 1st place... the rest would not have happened. But once they experienced a spin in their own hand, they actually become much better listener, and that's where their biggest improvement comes. So I don't even mind a student spin once in a while, it's good for them.
My instructing philosophy comes from experience. I know what works and what does not. My students always make me pround by going out and kick *** while remaining safe. I love it when it's girl students... had one @ Laguna Seca at the last TracQuest she and her husband shared their M5 (my favorite 4 door sedan to drive). She was grinning ear to ear after her own session as well as allowing me to drive their M5.
PS, for those of you that have instructed, I think you would agree that it is a lot of work and it is a huge responsibility. Instructors fully deserve the free food, seat time. We worked hard for it. And for the last time, me driving other people's cars are private arrangements. To clarify, please do not connect that with any of the clubs I run with. Some clubs prohibites such actions, and I certainly do comply.
<strong>
See, that is exactly the opposite of what I was saying. Properly set up, you don't have that. Of course, an LSD helps, which the SE-R has. Adding a Quaife to the car is good for about a second a lap.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't mix the two paragraphs I wrote. I was not saying my car is a pushing pig. My car setup is very neutral; why do think some call me a wreckless driver? They see the rear end dances around and they think I'm losing control. IMO, properly setup momentum FWD are very easy/relaxing to drive once you get used them. My car actually has a slight understeer right now. I'm experiencing an interesting thing right now. The balance was 100% neutral with less grippy tires, now even just on good street tires (Falken Azenis) the balance of the car is slight push. FWIF spec of the car is -3f -2.5r camber, zero toe front and back, 560 lbs/" front and back, cheap KYB AGX adjustable shocks, decently sized sway bars front and back (24 mm and 19 mm). I'm going to up the rear rate to help it rotate. It's a daily driven car so I'm a bit hesitant to upgrade the rear. Comfort level of the rear rate is already near the edge for street use.
If I can't drive anywhere near the limit, why would Toyo reps happily agreeing to sponsor me some RA1's after they rode with me at Infineon recently? They wouldn't want a reckless/arrogant/dangerous guy that have no clue of the limit representing their product would they?
There was a big National Factory Five (429 replica) race at the last NASA Infineon event. Many of them have never been on the track before. I drove several of them on the track to share what I know. Some of these guys are very experienced. Brian Cates used to race along side PD, Pobst (I think) in IMSA Firehawk CRX's. He tell me to get my butt out on track and race. And if I make it to VIR to have fun at a enduro or East Coast Honda Challenge, he'll have no problem vouching my my decent speed and safe driving approch.
What's below isn't directly towards you Geo, just some general comments. For whatever reason people think sliding is a big no no. And DE's one should never go beyond 8/9 10th? How are you suppose to be a better driver if you don't get close to the limit? You will never learn to drive at/near the limit unless you get comfortable near it. You only try to go 10/10th if you're racing? Most race sessions are much shorter than open track/DE events.
IMO, Any seat time is VERY valuable, and when it's in my car, I aim for 10/10th, while still hold safety as #1 priority. So 10/10th is a mental state, I'm pushing as hard as my abilities allows me. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm getting 100% out of the car, just that I'm trying. One reason I get bored of my cars is the performance envelop are relatively little. Many have told me I just need to go w2w. A race is a race no matter what relative speed. I get a bigger kick out of driving different cars at moderate speed (say 7-8.5/10th). I did some 7/10th laps at Infineon with a new track friend/student's Cosworth Escort (bone stock). We both enjoyed it tremendously and he would happily let me do it again any time. I've had more than enough seat time in my own car. The passengers enjoy the ride more than I enjoy to drive my car. As a matter of fact, Dean was messing around with me and black flagged me to give different people rides. Treadway is one of the coolest track guys I know... and he makes for a very cool looking dracula.
I'm glad I got couple of email me directly telling me they know exactly what I'm talking about. One can drive at the limit and still be in control. I am a bit surprised that most don't agree. Even coming from guys I think are pretty good drivers... but while I don't agree with their opinion, I respect them. Unlike a lot of you who are taking personal jabs and low blows, which I lose respect for you. You know who you are.
My instructing approch may be different than others, and my results shows. My students (especially) track virgins are consistantly the fastest guy in their group, stays online (because they recognize quickly why they need to learn th line fast before they can safely go fast), and are very safe. They hardly ever spun. I've had 2-3 (out of easily 150+ people I've worked with) of my students spun, with me instructing them in the passenger seat giving them real time instruction. And I can tell you they lost it because they did not follow my command. Typical spin scenerio, I tell them to slow way down approch the turn in, they barely use any brakes and they go in a little hot, and turn in too fast/abruptly, causing the tail to step out. They could all be easily saved, if they got over the mental fact that you need to use the throttle to balance the car. They would counter (sometimes I put my hands on the wheel to help to counter), and I'm telling them "gas, gas, gas", and they never even got on the gas. Now you can make the argument I should not have let them get there in the 1st place, or IMO it was 100% the student's fault for not applying what I'm telling them. If they had slowed down enough in the 1st place... the rest would not have happened. But once they experienced a spin in their own hand, they actually become much better listener, and that's where their biggest improvement comes. So I don't even mind a student spin once in a while, it's good for them.
My instructing philosophy comes from experience. I know what works and what does not. My students always make me pround by going out and kick *** while remaining safe. I love it when it's girl students... had one @ Laguna Seca at the last TracQuest she and her husband shared their M5 (my favorite 4 door sedan to drive). She was grinning ear to ear after her own session as well as allowing me to drive their M5.
PS, for those of you that have instructed, I think you would agree that it is a lot of work and it is a huge responsibility. Instructors fully deserve the free food, seat time. We worked hard for it. And for the last time, me driving other people's cars are private arrangements. To clarify, please do not connect that with any of the clubs I run with. Some clubs prohibites such actions, and I certainly do comply.
12-07-2002, 02:31 PM
#50
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[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>To me 10/10th is just that 100%.
This 100% of your driving skill which means you are on the VERY limit of what you and the car can do. It nothing to do with absolute lap times as conditions will have huge impact on this.
What it means is that is not possible for the given driver in a given car on a given day to go any faster. Attempting to go faster will result in either going slower or going off-track.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree with the above.
[quote]<strong>
To me 10/10ths is only appropriate in a one lap time trial or qualifying situation. The driver must feel like even the slighest error will either cost him time or control of the car. </strong><hr></blockquote>
When you add the performance envelop... a car that has a lower envelop will be easier to drive 10/10th all the times. Because the loads are lower, and your reactions don't have to be as fast. Compared that to a truly capable car...
[quote]<strong>
If we look a race drivers I feel the even M Schumacher goes 10/10th a maximum of 4 times during any GP weekend. These would be on Each of his 4 qualifying laps. He may infact only go 10/10ths on 3 or even two of the 4 since an error may cost him the car and he may chose to get a lap in the bank at 9.9/10ths just make sure he is at least close to the front.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I love watching F1 in car videos. The performance just seem so unreal.
[quote]<strong>
I beleve sprint races are run at 9.5/10 to 9.9/10ths. Since any screw-up can cost you more than what is gained by that extro 1/100th of second you gain from going 10/10ths. </strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a saying, qualifying is about going fastest you can (thus 10/10th). Racing is all about positioning, and that does not always required 10/10th.
[quote]<strong>
To me DE should never be run more than 8/10th to 9/10th even with very experieced drivers simply because there is too much risk and not enough reward. Even so the desire to get faster and better should present, but need to drive at very limit is not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Seat time makes all the difference in the world guys. If you are lucky like me to have the amount of seat time I get, you will probably be a lot better driver than you imagined. I met a cool guy Woody Harrison (he runs a Birkin outfit, Lotus 7 replica in NorthCal). He used to race in F3 in England for a while. He tells me seat time is all it is... that, and some natural talent.
[quote]<strong>
Autocross however is very uniqe in that I feel you need to drive at 11/10th to very fast. This does imply more than 100%, but I think that is the way it feels to driver who is familier with the big track since things must happen very quickly and risks of errors are so low. To expericed dedicated Autocrossers I feel that they would call this 10/10ths, but driving like this on big track to very dangerious in my opinion due to much higer speeds and greater risk of car damage and injury.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Autocrossers often turn into really good road racers, if they get the right pointers. It is easy to drive 10/10th or even 11/10th because autox is low-mid speed at best. AutoX is whole another breed. Having completed McKamey AutoX School (now called Evolution School) phase 1, 2 & 3, I know how the mental aspect works for the National Champs. And one thing is for sure, they are good because they are very dedicated to their sports and get .... lot of seat time.
<strong>To me 10/10th is just that 100%.
This 100% of your driving skill which means you are on the VERY limit of what you and the car can do. It nothing to do with absolute lap times as conditions will have huge impact on this.
What it means is that is not possible for the given driver in a given car on a given day to go any faster. Attempting to go faster will result in either going slower or going off-track.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree with the above.
[quote]<strong>
To me 10/10ths is only appropriate in a one lap time trial or qualifying situation. The driver must feel like even the slighest error will either cost him time or control of the car. </strong><hr></blockquote>
When you add the performance envelop... a car that has a lower envelop will be easier to drive 10/10th all the times. Because the loads are lower, and your reactions don't have to be as fast. Compared that to a truly capable car...
[quote]<strong>
If we look a race drivers I feel the even M Schumacher goes 10/10th a maximum of 4 times during any GP weekend. These would be on Each of his 4 qualifying laps. He may infact only go 10/10ths on 3 or even two of the 4 since an error may cost him the car and he may chose to get a lap in the bank at 9.9/10ths just make sure he is at least close to the front.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I love watching F1 in car videos. The performance just seem so unreal.
[quote]<strong>
I beleve sprint races are run at 9.5/10 to 9.9/10ths. Since any screw-up can cost you more than what is gained by that extro 1/100th of second you gain from going 10/10ths. </strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a saying, qualifying is about going fastest you can (thus 10/10th). Racing is all about positioning, and that does not always required 10/10th.
[quote]<strong>
To me DE should never be run more than 8/10th to 9/10th even with very experieced drivers simply because there is too much risk and not enough reward. Even so the desire to get faster and better should present, but need to drive at very limit is not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Seat time makes all the difference in the world guys. If you are lucky like me to have the amount of seat time I get, you will probably be a lot better driver than you imagined. I met a cool guy Woody Harrison (he runs a Birkin outfit, Lotus 7 replica in NorthCal). He used to race in F3 in England for a while. He tells me seat time is all it is... that, and some natural talent.
[quote]<strong>
Autocross however is very uniqe in that I feel you need to drive at 11/10th to very fast. This does imply more than 100%, but I think that is the way it feels to driver who is familier with the big track since things must happen very quickly and risks of errors are so low. To expericed dedicated Autocrossers I feel that they would call this 10/10ths, but driving like this on big track to very dangerious in my opinion due to much higer speeds and greater risk of car damage and injury.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Autocrossers often turn into really good road racers, if they get the right pointers. It is easy to drive 10/10th or even 11/10th because autox is low-mid speed at best. AutoX is whole another breed. Having completed McKamey AutoX School (now called Evolution School) phase 1, 2 & 3, I know how the mental aspect works for the National Champs. And one thing is for sure, they are good because they are very dedicated to their sports and get .... lot of seat time.
12-07-2002, 05:24 PM
#51
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10/10ths?
I'm not sure if I've ever driven at my 10/10ths, and certainly never at the car's 10/10ths. Hurley Haywood can easily take my car around a road circuit faster than I can.
There are times when I take a turn faster than I've done before. Sometimes this is because I made a mistake that made me faster, like braking "too late" for example. Does this mean I was at 10/10ths? If so, does that mean that I can't do it better in the future?
I'll say one thing though that some of you may agree with...IF driving 10/10ths correlates with lower lap times, then I'm most often (not always)driving 10/10ths during competition when I'm chasing someone down and not thinking too much. Kind of like in a "zone".
I'm not sure if I've ever driven at my 10/10ths, and certainly never at the car's 10/10ths. Hurley Haywood can easily take my car around a road circuit faster than I can.
There are times when I take a turn faster than I've done before. Sometimes this is because I made a mistake that made me faster, like braking "too late" for example. Does this mean I was at 10/10ths? If so, does that mean that I can't do it better in the future?
I'll say one thing though that some of you may agree with...IF driving 10/10ths correlates with lower lap times, then I'm most often (not always)driving 10/10ths during competition when I'm chasing someone down and not thinking too much. Kind of like in a "zone".
12-07-2002, 07:50 PM
#52
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Mike, 10/10ths - that's what I meant about stringing a few 10/10ths turns together. Trying to do it for few consecutive turns is a challenge, an entire lap is daunting, two consecutive laps maybe...
It seems to be consensus that 10/10ths doesn't apply to the car, but to the combination of you, the car, and the conditions -- not you compared to someone else.
How come I don't see any pictures of the pit crew?
It seems to be consensus that 10/10ths doesn't apply to the car, but to the combination of you, the car, and the conditions -- not you compared to someone else.
How come I don't see any pictures of the pit crew?
12-09-2002, 10:40 AM
#53
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[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>
In the rain.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
IMO, he surely was and still is the king of driving! <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />
I only wish we could've seen him & G. Villeneuve to battle, I imagine that truly would've been something to see...
<strong>
In the rain.
</strong><hr></blockquote>IMO, he surely was and still is the king of driving! <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />
I only wish we could've seen him & G. Villeneuve to battle, I imagine that truly would've been something to see...
12-09-2002, 04:09 PM
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I would think 10/10ths to mean driving on the ragged edge at the limits of both yours and your car's capabilities.
Several years ago I had an instructor at a PCA DE tell me that I should only drive at 8-9 10ths because leaving that 1-2 10ths out there will save your behind when you make a mistake. That advice has saved both my butt and my car on a few occasions where I pushed a little too hard. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
Several years ago I had an instructor at a PCA DE tell me that I should only drive at 8-9 10ths because leaving that 1-2 10ths out there will save your behind when you make a mistake. That advice has saved both my butt and my car on a few occasions where I pushed a little too hard. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
