[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>And keep in mind when I said I drove 10/10th... 10/10th in an underpowered momentum car like the Honda Civic (135 crank hp, 2300 lbs with driver) is a lot easier than say 10/10th in a 993. I'm flat out a lot.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gettoblaster...

I too drive a momentum car.
My 944 has 150 crank hp and is 2450lbs. Let me tell you 10/10ths is still 10/10ths. The only difference between a street stock 993 and my 944 on the race track really the straight away speed and overall lap times. I can push just as hard as guy in 911GT3RS and drive at my limit just as he drives at his. The biggest difference is likly to be the speed at which I may hit a solid object is probably going to be less than the GT3RS.

If you have anything left or any margin for error then... You were not at 10/10ths anyway!

Secondly
Good instructors have good dose of humulity in what they do. They may be good, very good infact, they may also know how good they are, but when they instruct they do not try to show how fast they really are. It is far too dangerious to the student as they might think. "Well if he did that I my car then I can too." Then proceed to pop both air bag learning that they can't.

Remember instruction is not about how fast you can drive, but can you get the student to first drive safely and then begin to learn the finer points so that they can learn to progress their own skill levels. It has nothing to do with you.

 

[quote]Originally posted by RSAErick:
<strong>I personally don't think that it is possible for anyone to drive at 10/10ths for any significant amount of time without making a mistake. To be able to do so, would to be perfect. Shumacher may be close, but I would guess that even with his extraordinary training, he probably drives 9+/10's most all of the time.

Maybe GhettoRacer is more gifted than we give him credit for!?!?

Erick</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. I don't trust anyone who tells me they drive 10/10ths all the time. Sounds more like someone experiencing the red mist. Certainly someone who would not get behind the wheel of my car.

 

[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>I've been driving 10/10th in my own car for the last year at over 60 track days. I've never spun. I've had a handful of two wheels off, and I've gone four wheels off 3-4 times. I'm very aggressive on the brakes, and sometimes I overshoot my braking point (and sometimes a little pad fade, force me to take a controlled 4 wheel off. I've never put myself, or anyone else close to danger.

There are serious DE's where even a tire screech is considered driving too hard. For example once I got black flagged in my friend's NSX because we were on Kumho Ecasta 712's and they're noisy as hell when you drive them hard. The car was never out of shape, but because the tire was screaming at every turn they told me I was too aggressive for their school. I was not tail gating or doing any wild passes neither. It was all because of tire noise.

Then, there are open track events (where everyone drives near the limit) and even time trial such as the Speed Ventures events. They've got some fast/good drivers there and certainly everyone knows what they're doing.

Going fast doesn't automatically mean it's dangerous.</strong><hr></blockquote>

60 events at 10/10ths and never a spin. Your talent must rival Schumie, or your definition of 10/10ths is pretty slow. Of course, being from the West Coast, I have seen you out there. I guess when you say you never spun your car, you really mean YOUR car. You have spun other people's cars. I have seen you spin and seen some real ragged driving when you are 10 seconds slower than another driver in the same car. Keep bragging.

You have an interesting twist on being black flagged for tire noise. The way I saw it, you were sideways everywhere and out of control according to the organizers but again that wasn't YOUR car so I guess that doesn't count either.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Geoffrey:
<strong>My bottom line from all of GhettoRacer's posts is that in my opinion he does not have the mental attitude that I would expect a seasoned instructor to have. Additionally, the difference between a Honda Civic and a Porsche 911, especially a turbo, are so different, I would not let him anywhere near my car. There are just too many good instructors out there to choose from.</strong><hr></blockquote>

First, I'd just like to ask people to consider that instructing ability and driving ability are TWO seperate thing. I don't know why you guys even have problem with me driving _my own car_ at 10/10th (also consider my 10/10th might be only your 8/10th). And what the heck does that have to do with instructing? My instructing philosophy is simple. Safety is #1. And help the people go faster while becoming a safer driver is #2. That's it. Forget about the part I drive people's cars.

Second, driving is all about weight transfer. It really does not matter what type of car it is, the principle is the same. But the performance envelop of faster cars are greater, which means, the loads are greater, which requires a faster reaction time. Don't discount people who started small. Randy Pobst drive Honda's for a while. Now he's got GT3Cup and GT3RS rides in like three major series.

As far as seasoned... the range of car and people I work with is probably as broad as anyone as far as street cars go.

 

WOW
Mr. Ghetto you are really digging yourself a nice deep hole there aren't you?

If you are truely driving at 10/10ths I am impressed.

Mind you I am not an expert racer but I have done some and during qualifying I could/would not carry on a conversation with anyone. You are aiming for the best time and it requires 110% of your attention and focus. During a DE I could drive at 8 or 9/10ths with a student and have a limited conversation, point out certain parts of the track or apexs,etc. There is no need to go any faster, the student won't learn anymore and you are putting them in more danger than they should be. I would not talk them through each turn unless I was closer to 7/10th or for a track like Mid Ohio it would be a bout 5 to 7 seconds a lap slower than what I am capable of doing that particular day.

If you have never been in a competitve situation where there is something on the line (and no, serious DEs don't count) you haven't truely been at the limit.

 

[quote]Originally posted by SeriousRacer:
<strong>

60 events at 10/10ths and never a spin. Your talent must rival Schumie, or your definition of 10/10ths is pretty slow. Of course, being from the West Coast, I have seen you out there. I guess when you say you never spun your car, you really mean YOUR car. You have spun other people's cars. I have seen you spin and seen some real ragged driving when you are 10 seconds slower than another driver in the same car. Keep bragging.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Slower than who? You? In the *same* exact car? I'd like to see what you turn on 712's. I've never said I can drive the NSX to the limit. IMO it is a car that's hard catch perfectly after you go beyond the limit. It was one of my best friend's car I was driving, thus I drive it liberally. I've spun it many times while practice drifting and trying to kill the Kumho's on purpose.

[quote]
<strong>

You have an interesting twist on being black flagged for tire noise. The way I saw it, you were sideways everywhere and out of control according to the organizers but again that wasn't YOUR car so I guess that doesn't count either.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's not what the head of the pitlane said. I asked him why the black flag, he just said you're making lot of tire noise and we're afriad you'll lose it. If anyone has driven on Kumho Ecasta 712's I'm sure they can attest to their sound quality.

Lets see, are you some person with red NSX?

 

[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>WOW
Mr. Ghetto you are really digging yourself a nice deep hole there aren't you?

If you are truely driving at 10/10ths I am impressed.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Greg. As others have stated, 10/10th is dynamic. With out any other changes, there is very little, if any performance left. I dunno if I'm getting 100% out of the car's setup. But I know I'm driving it to the best of my ability (again, that being relative...) A Civic's performance envelop is nothing spectacular, I dunno why you guys find it hard to believe.

[quote]<strong>
Mind you I am not an expert racer but I have done some and during qualifying I could/would not carry on a conversation with anyone. You are aiming for the best time and it requires 110% of your attention and focus. During a DE I could drive a 8 or 9/10ths with a student and have a limited conversation, point out certain parts of the track or apexs,etc. But I could not and would not talk them through each turn unless I was at closer to 7/10th.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

try a FWD momentum car. there's so much waiting around... and there's no power slide to worry about. it's really a walk in the park. consider this, Miata's. they are momentum cars and power/weight ratio is very close to my Civic. I would never say I can drive a Miata 10/10th because I don't have enough seat time there. I have a lot of respect for some one that can drive a SM fast. It gets tricky keeping that momentum going.

[quote][/QB]
If you have never been in a competitve situation where there is something on the line (and no, serious DEs don't count) you haven't truely been at the limit.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Can't say that I've done a formal w2w race. But you guys will probably think I'm bragging more if I tell you about my fun race using the Civic with a handful of F360 Challenge cars, even a F360 GT... but that's another story I'll keep to myself.

-Frank (a track *****/car nut that loves all cars, and is out to make friends, not enemies @ track)

 

Hmmm. MidOhio - the idea of carrying on a conversation through Madness at 10/10ths boggles the mind. I don't believe the student would understand what I was saying. It would probably sound more like praying.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

still working on stringing some 10/10ths corners together.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Alan Herod:
<strong>Hmmm. MidOhio - the idea of carrying on a conversation through Madness at 10/10ths boggles the mind. I don't believe the student would understand what I was saying. It would probably sound more like praying.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

still working on stringing some 10/10ths corners together.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Heh. Mid-Ohio was where I met Greg Fishman briefly, and also my lucky chance to drive the 996 GT2. My first few laps there was in my friend's Civic DX (100 hp, full interior so it's like 2450 lbs with driver). I was really disappointed with the track at first... but as with any track, the faster you go, the more fun it becomes.

In case some of you a bored, and wanna know how I typically spend @ a track day... check out my Mid-Ohio adventure here.

<a href="http://66.134.92.79/frank/eg2/tq-midohio-0802/" target="_blank">http://66.134.92.79/frank/eg2/tq-midohio-0802/</a>

 

"try a FWD momentum car. there's so much waiting around... and there's no power slide to worry about. it's really a walk in the park"

Frank, If it was a walk in the park you weren't pushing it to the limit.

I understand that it doesn't have a lot of HP. and neither do the GAC Integra's that run in the STII class, but I watched them at their race at VIR and they were sliding through every turn and using every inch of track they had available.

No one is saying that you can't drive but you are not realistic if you say you are at 100% all the time, it doesn't matter if you are in a 100hp FWD car or a 500hp 911. It just means you haven't been pushed enough to know where your limit is.

 

[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>try a FWD momentum car. there's so much waiting around... and there's no power slide to worry about. it's really a walk in the park.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Horsepucky.

You have not driven a properly set-up FWD car and I suspect you don't know how to drive one. Since I race one, I think I can speak intelligently about this.

There is no waiting around. It just requires a different technique. You no longer have to balance the front to rear as much, but you have to focus twice as much on what's going on up front.

Despite what you might think, it is indeed possible to powerslide a FWD car, although it is very different from a RWD car. If you set the car up with enough rotation, you must be on the power to keep the car drifting to track-out, otherwise you'll just spin. You still control the drift with the throttle. I've driven our Sentra SE-R this way. It's different. It takes some getting used to. But it works great.

You don't wait around.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>"try a FWD momentum car. there's so much waiting around... and there's no power slide to worry about. it's really a walk in the park"

Frank, If it was a walk in the park you weren't pushing it to the limit.[</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm getting close... at LS the civic turned 1:51's on good street tires (Falken Azenis). The p/w is simliar to ITA cars, which the record is 1:47 or 48. I think I can pick up a good 2 seconds going to R tires.

[quote]<strong>
I understand that it doesn't have a lot of HP. and neither do the GAC Integra's that run in the STII class, but I watched them at their race at VIR and they were sliding through every turn and using every inch of track they had available..</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know, those cars are no slutch, turns like 1:48 @ Mid-Ohio, but I think that's with out the keyhole. And I rode in a SSB (or was it SSC) Integra GSR. He was turning 1:50-51 carrying me... and it certainly was sideways a lot. More than I imagined for a showroom stock car. He had no problem talking to me constantly. I think you can get used to talking and driving with out losing concentration... unless you have a VERY busy car.

[quote]<strong>
No one is saying that you can't drive but you are not realistic if you say you are at 100% all the time, it doesn't matter if you are in a 100hp FWD car or a 500hp 911. It just means you haven't been pushed enough to know where your limit is.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Man, you guys are nitpicking on me! For get the figures. I drive my own car to the best of my abilitiy in instructor/red groups and I do it completely relaxed. Okay I really dunno if I'm going 100% of the car's potential. Maybe it's only 90%, but I am giving it all I got.
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

 

[quote]Originally posted by SeriousRacer:
<strong>60 events at 10/10ths and never a spin. Your talent must rival Schumie, or your definition of 10/10ths is pretty slow.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps he has his FIA DE Superlicense.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>

There is no waiting around. It just requires a different technique. You no longer have to balance the front to rear as much, but you have to focus twice as much on what's going on up front.

Despite what you might think, it is indeed possible to powerslide a FWD car, although it is very different from a RWD car. If you set the car up with enough rotation, you must be on the power to keep the car drifting to track-out, otherwise you'll just spin. You still control the drift with the throttle. I've driven our Sentra SE-R this way. It's different. It takes some getting used to. But it works great.

You don't wait around.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Setup the car to have a very good turn in (to carry as much speed as possible), get on the gas to accelerate out and plant the rear... and then the waiting game begins... No? My car has pretty decent rotation and I'm on the gas well before the apex...

I wouldn't call a good turn in rotation a powerslide. Ask the drifting crowd if powerslide is possible on FWD, they will always say us FWD cars are just *** draggers.


PS, how does the SER fare in ITS? what is the required min. raceweight for SER? we used to have a G20, which is same chassis as SER but with longer wheelbase. until Integra Type-R's came out, the G20 held the best handling FWD car spot for quite a few years.

 

[quote]Originally posted by txhedg:
<strong>

there was some other guy in the group from somewhere in CA that answered ALL the questions (brown nose style) in the classroom, and talked loudly about his "racing" experience in SCCA Solo II events.</strong><hr></blockquote>

haha. brown nosers are kind of annoying in the classrom.

[quote]<strong>
PS - Come to think of it Ghetto, I think there was a traqquest instructor in my class....Mike maybe? drove a black or dark blue Supra TT? younger kid, maybe late 20's. ask him if he remembers the intrepid racer....he may not know about the crash, since we found out at the very end.....I swear we almost pissed our pants we were laughing so hard.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Haven't seen any instructors with Supra TT's in Cali TQ events in a while... so advanced and intro goes on the same day ehh? the freebie crash is pretty cool. how much seat time do you get in the intro course? and since you already have experience, would you say it is worth it?