BEST INSTRUCTING PEARLS?? THROW ME A BONE!
 

Hi mentors. I am going to be instructing for my second time soon! I know it is a learning and growing experience. But..........I would like to learn faster so I can be a more knowledgeable and capable instructor and not disappoint any students.
I was hoping that if some of you would share some of your favorite tips or great pearls of wisdom with me that you have picked up along the way.
That way I could try to start higher on the curve for my students!!!
Or just facts I should know or think about before I go out again.

Maybe stuff you guys didnt know at my level but learned latter??

Even a favorite instructor-student story???

I appreciate you guys sharing instructing tips with me. Any driving or instructing tips would be great!!!!!! :bowdown:

tom

First, you have to do a few things to establish the w/e.
1) find out who you are dealing with. Doctors and similar professions tend to learn by seeing it on paper not just simply telling them something, so don't be afraid to draw apex points etc on a map as you explain.....then watch them follow your instruction! Your first task is to quickly find out how they learn.....sometimes I ask,(do you learn by audio or visual?), just saves time :D
2) You MUST establish that YOU are in control and that they do NOTHING until you tell them they can. Again, they tend to take instruction very well when properly directed :) I tell my students that they can't go past xx gear until I feel they are safe enough to do so. I also tell them to keep the speed under xx until I feel confident about their abilities.
3) I always try to comment on screw ups as they happen. There is so much going on, they'll never remember come the end of the session. Do it quick and then let them move on, don't let them dwell, just make sure they know that something was not right. Get them to work on it next lap (if its a problem, they may have just messed up one time.....let it go).
4) always try to be possitive about their performance, any little thing they do thats right......build on it. Ask them what they want to work on next session........may not be what happens, but tells you were their mind is :D
5) Make sure they enjoy themselves but not go overboard. Their fun and safety is in your hands, be very careful with it ......and enjoy with them :thumbup:

Awesome Chris, I'm writing this stuff in my instructor notebook, thanks for all the great tips!!!!!!!!
I never thought of or knew about keeping them limited to a gear or a speed! Does that cause problems for others on the track?
tom

I'll give you one when you sign the student off. I always tell them to be careful, back it down a little, and don't try anything that we haven't done in the car already. I inform them that I have a perfect record, and that no student has ever wrecked their car during the weekend when I have signed them off. I end with firmly stating that I do not want them to embarrass me by crashing their car. Though said in jest, they know that I am quite serious about their safety.

Some more tidbits:

Even a newbie should be able to get past the basics in a session or two, if not it may be you :( try something new. If you see they are getting it pretty quick, get them to a point where they feel comfortable going fair fast around the entire track.

One thing I forgot to mention is that, the first session needs to be only memorizing the track layout (while on track). There'll be nothing to teach if they don't remember what comes up next. try to get them to that point as fast as possible. They need to know where it is the track is going as soon as possible to "go" any further in learning
On big tracks, I take it a quarter at a time, let them get good at a piece and as they do, the rest will start coming together for them. I took a student at VIR (17+ turns) from knowing nothing to chasing Vettes by the end of the weekend, so I know it can happen.......its up to both of you.

You won't get everything covered in one w/e (mainly because you are both new to it), so don't either of you get frustrated. Find whatever it is they "get" and work on it.

Hey Tom

Your enthusium and desire to learn will make you a valuable asset to both regions here in S.Fla.
Either that or you are going to be a real pain in the ass........kidding just kidding, I am really looking forward to meeting you at Moroso in a couple of weeks.
You will find the Gold Coast guys to be friendly and very dedicated to the quality of the DE program.

One of my favorite tid bits is "Drive your line".
I explain to my students that, things happen fast on the track...BUT they happen over and over again.
At Moroso a student will be visiting that part of the track again in two minutes or so. Even at Sebring it's about 3 minutes per lap or so for most students.
The point here is if your student really screws something up you cannot dwell on it. The next turn is coming up fast! Say what you have to say, then let him know that we will deal with it again real soon........but get back in the present NOW.
"Drive your line" is what I use to bring a student into the present moment....very important.

[QUOTE=993inNC]
2) You MUST establish that YOU are in control and that they do NOTHING until you tell them they can. Again, they tend to take instruction very well when properly directed :) I tell my students that they can't go past xx gear until I feel they are safe enough to do so. I also tell them to keep the speed under xx until I feel confident about their abilities.
QUOTE]

This is the best advise anyone could give you.

Set the upper limits of performance, that way the student will be more focused on technique rather that sheer speed. In my experience, students that are focused on their absolute speed are often the ones where the real "pucker" moments happen.

Some things I use:

1. Know the students car/setup - I talk up the car and make them feel good. The student should have fun - that is why they paid for the w/e.
2. Remain positive - I use 2 positive comments for every negative/neutral one
3. I try and email my student before the w/e to get some car and experience details. I find my student very early in the day. Remember back to when you started how important it was to meet your instructor. This removes some of the 1st day jitters. I always show my student where I am parked and I use time before AND after each run to describe concepts in full detail. The more communication with the student, the more I can ascertain what kind of person I am instructing and how they might learn the best. I also review the flags before the 1st run of the w/e and more often if needed.
4. I always use a communicator and use one or two word commands. Brief immediate feedback works good for me.
5. After I have a certain amount of comfort with my student, I spend a lot of time watching their eyes. The car will go where they are looking. Vision is they key to smoothness.
6. I review our drivers manual with certain students and I have an extra copy of speed secrets that I loan out for the w/e.
7. I also use the "no shifting" technique with newbies to help them concentrate on the line.
8. On the warm up lap, I point out each and every flag station. On the cool down lap I ask them details about the flaggers (man/women/hat color/jacket color, etc)
9. I use my laptop and video (no not Larry's :) for some of my advanced students that may be new to a particular track. It help me review corner numbers or terminology that I will be using on the track.

Now I need to go do my Santa duties

$.02

Here are a couple of things I always say;

"There's a cheap part to every straight, and an expensive one!"

Keeping in mind the above...

"It's not how fast you go..it's how fast you stop" Not my quote.

"Worry about your lap times when they increase the prize money"

When I sign people off, I very specifically remind them that 150lbs is getting out of the car and that it will be very apparent at the first turn. The car will be VERY different be ready for it and plan accordingly... ask me how I know.

BTW, I think that you should be applauded for wanting to learn to be a better instructor for your students. I have learned things from reading the posts in your thread, so thanks!

Don't forget to tell the student that it is a long standing tradition that the student buys lunch for the instructor.

Go out with a more advanced instructor in your right seat and be a good student for them.

Tom, there are so many things to learn (the instructor) in order to teach (the student)...don't be overwelmed and your student won't be either. If you're tense and anxious...so, too, will your student...and, that's not good. If you're too relaxed (disinterested?), then this too is not good.
First order of business for me is to teach ocular or vision driving...show the student in first 2 laps (while you are driving their car) the layout of the surroundings, the track, and the flag stations.
Do not teach "advanced" moves or theories with a novice--you will only overload them.
With a good communicator, you can actually listen to their breathing...yep, if they are hyperventilating--calm them down, bring them in and the both of you will be happier for it.
The warm up lap and the cool down lap are the only true "learning" laps because it's done at reduced speeds, no passing, etc.
When a student wants to go (too) fast given my evaluation of them I, too, will either restrict their gears or their speed or their rpms...whatever works for that particular student. I always tell my quicker students that I do not mind them going fast, BUT it must be under MY terms, not theirs.
Chances are they will not get most of the information you and the class will teach, particularly, in the beginning. Don't dispair and don't get impatient with the student--you remember, it's pretty intimidating to most of us in the beginning.
It's been said before, keep the vocabulary efficient--maybe 10-20 short words or phrases where there are no "gray" areas--crystal clear words are always better. Develop your own consistent set.
After each run, try to spend a few minutes to review...even if you need to come off of the track a few minutes early--it's worth it.
Have fun, be safe and I have a feeliing you'll do just fine.
See you there,
Bob

I like" What part of slow the F**k down are You struggling with?" Seems to work well with the big on aggression/checkbook, low on talent student.

:roflmao: Great stuff!!

Thanks again Tom for starting this thread.......I am going to steal these pearls for disscusion at the Instructor School the weekend after next!

How 'bout, "if you want to go fast, don't hurry."

Bill N, That is a good one.

Glen, very funny!

Keep 'em coming guys & gals - I'm learning too.

Recently Signed Off
 

From an eager student who has recently been signed off:

1. Powerful cars are great - after you learn to drive. I started this DE season - my first - in my Ferrari and quickly figured out that I would never learn anything or have fun until I had a momentum car. Now my 944 NA is being rebuilt for Cup racing and my F-car stays off the track (for now).

2. That said, the best session I had in my Ferrari was when my instructor had me lap the Glen with no brakes. Obviously, no drag racing down the straights and not much shifting. Less obviously, I was passing cars that had owned me earlier in the day. :) Bloody brilliant.

3. When I finally soloed, my instructor signed me off provisionally: he had me do a session alone, then another session with him, before signing me off officially. Very wise, and according to him based on having students lose their minds or their memories when first signed off. He didn't mention the change in weight but I didn't feel any change in the car. Perhaps the street tires/stock suspension made it less of an issue or maybe I was just new to the car.

4. I've made my peace with getting fast slowly. I had an instructor tell me once that I drove like a girl, but all of his fastest students were girls. There is probably a better way to make the same point, but still ...

5. Thanks for caring enough about us students to want to get instructing right.

Hey Tom;

I'll limit it to two points;

1) K.I.S.S. I use about 7 terms. You know them because you've read them in the article. Keeping things simple is a great gift to the student. I make sure I tell them what I am doing and why so that my limited vocabulary does not give them the impression that I am dissinterested. How do you know what this person needs to learn if you don't sit and watch them drive for a bit? Tell them what to do, when to do it, and by their reactions you will then know what to expound upon. Otherwise, you are just shooting in the dark, and probably overloading them with bulldurem!

2) Stress consistency and smoothness. Explain to them that their goal early on is to figure out what to do, do it right, and then repeat it over and over until it is second nature. If they want to go fast, tell them they must first drive consistently and smoothly using the tools they have now, and limit them to a Speed for Success as you must. Before long and if they don't realize it themsleves, you can clue them in to the fact that speed has happened, and then tell them why. It is their patience and attention to proper form that has created speed. By this they will see the importance of proper technique, and will strive for it instead of trying to drive fast consciously. That never works.

Hey John, Merry Christmas :) Tim, I would also like to thank you for asking the Mentors questions. The responses have been very enlightening and amusing. Great stuff!

Well once again this forum has not disappointed!!! The wealth of knowledge and more importantly the willingness to share has been overwhelming, all I can say is that this thread response has been one of my best Christmas presents. Also one in which I will be able to share with students for years to come!!....some of my favorite stuff (this helps me remember.... you know neural pathways and all)

Larry...good point about the sign off student especially since I have never done that yet!!

Chris, thanks again for all your help, at Sebring the student learning the 17 turns does take a while, and I will keep that in mind as a marker before the speed increases.

Dan...thanks and hopefully I will be an asset to the clubs not a "pain in the ass" but I cant I promise!!
I am glad to have the opportunity to be involved in the Suncoast and Gold coast PCA regions and really would like to help and be more involved, instructing is just hopefully one way.
Good point about seeing the same place every two minutes I'll remember that as I keep chanting "drive the line, drive the line"
I look forward to your clubs event, I have heard lots of good things, cant wait!! See ya there!!

Tony, I will try to always keep it positive and keep the feel good stuff coming, and as you say, the student did pay for this and should ENJOY themselves and I really think that is the most important part. Great idea about the email to the student, if I can do that I will also.
I will keep an eye on their eyes, good point.
How do I get a copy of your "speed secrets" I need it!!
Do alot of instructors use the "no shifting" technique for beginning students?

Dr Porsche... thanks for the great quote, I committed them to memory!! Good point about the weight difference with one less person in the car, thanks.

Bull... Lunch got it!! I always bought my instructors lunch!!

Bob... as always good advise and you are a great mentor of mine!! I am proud to have you in the region. Many great points but the "speed on my terms not theirs" is a great safety point and I will use it! See ya soon!

Glen I think we all like your quote!!!!

Bill N. ... "if you want to go fast, dont hurry" goes in my book also, thanks

Ronbo...good stuff. The provisional check off and re-visit is a very good idea, thanks

John H. glad I am answering you last. First, as always thank you for taking the time and trouble to share your knowledge with all of us (or at least me). I agree with the K.I.S.S. which actually works in all walks of life, but I would like to end with a question. Many including you have mentioned short phrases and words to use. And I know they are throughout the postings but I was wondering if you would mind repeating your seven terms here for all of us. Followed by the rest of the mentors in this thread sharing their favorite track words or phrases or even hand signals would be very helpful and interesting to at least me..................

thanks again all for helping me and hopefully others continue to improve as instructors...........you guys are truely awesome!!!!!

Don't instruct in the corners other than one or two word corrections or comments. Don't discuss what is behind you, wait til the next lap and instruct as you approach the corner in question. Long winded instruction is best done in the pits or little bits on the straights.

I don't point out the flag stations I have my students point out the manned flag stations on every out lap. Gets them in the habit of looking for flaggers themselves.
I ask my students to call out any flag they see the second they see it. I tell my students that I will call them into the pits every time they miss a flag or I call it before they do. I do give a small reaction time bumper to them if I see it first. I look to see what they are looking at then let them know they just blew by a flag.

When I sign off a student I let them know I am going to go watch them from corner # XX. This corner is always the one they are having the most trouble with. I let them know I will be watching and expect a good clean line and sometimes even go to the corner and watch. ;).

Sign off is a 2 person contract. You are not dumping a student for free time or to beat feet on Sunday. You are letting they drive on their own and learn the concept of self determination and concentration. Some students need this or they will get dependant on you protecting them rather than they thinking about what they are doing. You and the student must be comfortable in their driving solo. I always approach the sign off as "I feel that you are ready to do some solo driving if you like, your call".

Since we're on the subject, I approach signoff the same way that Kurt does, i.e. when the best thing that the student can do next is to make laps and work on some self critique (though I never have the time to go watch them from a corner :( ). It is prefaced by having the student vocalize their mistakes as they make them in the car, with me being very quiet and observing. If they can recognize their errors and correct them, use their mirrors, and are fairly consistent then they are ready for some solo sessions. The goal for those sessions being improved consistency and smoothness.

I still talk to them after those sessions, and usually get back into the car at least once after that to see how they are improving. They are my student for the entire weekend, not just until they are signed off.

TKERRMD thank you for the thread. By the shear number and quality of responses you can see how effective and powerful "questioning" is. I will now be absolutely shameless and pinch all the great feedbak, proper credti being given, and use a selection at the Feb 2007 Instructor school I/my region is conducting.

Happy New Year to all.

+1 For what Kurt said. I do it about the same.

I like it Kurt.

"KISS" is the best policy. dont get too caught up on the "line" stuff, heck, even 95 year old ladies take the apex on turns on public highways.

1. " brake straight" This stops most student problems and spin causes
2. have them learn turn-in speed, if they exceed it, have them not insist on the "line" just keep on braking until you get to that speed, and then turn. if it means missing the apex and going deep, FINE!!! All this "drive the line stuff, is the worst things you can teach a beginner. control and limits are the most important things (my opinion)
3. I like this simple one too, " use all the track, you paid for it" this is actually better than "drive the line" as it brings the focus on driving and exiting out to the width of the track. another cause of a potential problem is driving "narrrow" and this can help develope good exit habits.
4. brake later, harder and shorter (see #2). this can be learned early, but it sure gets rid of all the post DE chat about how thieir brakes are failing, cooking , feeling soft, etc.

Those 4 things can save folks a lot of time on the ramp up, and make it a heck of a lot more enjoyable for the instructor. Spins shouldnt be a "right of passage".

Mk

Hey Tom;

I want to say that your motivation and unselfish, non-ego driven attitude impresses me greatly. You are indeed a great asset to the Florida scene. The whole club in general. You may have written the manual on how to be a prospect!

http://redlinerennsport.homestead.co...2Language.html


LIFT off the gas,
BRAKE,
OFF BRAKE,
TURN,
Ease progressively into the THROTTLE,
Clip a tight APEX,
UNWIND the wheel,
and TRACK OUT

You, of course, can make your own list, and/or augment this one as needed.

We are like a custodian, in a new building with lots of doors, some locked, some not. In other words, we do not know what they do or don't know yet.

We have a ring of keys that we know well. We know that some of these keys will unlock the right doors, but which ones? I have found that by only doing what is necessary to make sure the student stays on track, and by sitting and watching, the student will show me which keys are needed. It takes far less time when you don't have to guess and simply try every key in every door, hoping to hit on the right one.

A little time spent watching will save time for you in the end, and save confusion for your student. :cool:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got some reinforcement for this method with my last student. After 2 days of continually coaching this fellow with this list of terms - out of necessity - I had reached the point where I basically had written him off. He did not seem to grasp the reasoning behind what I was telling him, and he could not maintain any real consistency. I simply did not think that after 2 days of needing to tell him turn after turn, lap after lap, what to do and when, that he had any aptitude for this driving thing at all.

3rd day, first session, more of the same. I'm sure my resignation was probably palpable, which is a strike against me. Then, it happened. The 2nd run of day 3, he had his epiphany. For what ever reason, he decided to go a little faster. I'm not sure why, but suddenly everything I had been telling him started to click. Instead of good technique creating speed, the extra speed made the techniques work. When he needed to do something because of this epeed, he did so instinctively and with commitment. I was stunned, and I told him so in a most positive fashion. "Who are you... and what have you done with Bob?"

Although he had not been able to use it, had no idea of why it was useful, it had been sinking in. The subconscious pattern had been cementing itself. I have no idea whether it was a conscious decision or not, to go faster, but the smashing of that plateau was a real eye openner for us both. As resigned as I has been, so too was I that effusive with praise, and more so. The pumping of my fist in his periferal vision, a pat on the shoulder, "Yesssss, Excellent, Perfect, Woooohoo!"

The instructor had a break through. I learned a lot from him. Don't give up.

Great Point, Mark;

Many times this missing the apex thing is the result of the "Good Technique Creating Speed" phenomenon. They often times will also have concurrently reached the point of self critiquing their driving. When the inevitable wide lines happen, I make sure to shift their attention to what the car did, not where it was. If the arc was well set, and the car composed and solid, I make sure to reinforce that. I impress upon them why this happened (Good Technique=Speed Happens), and make them feel that it is now a simple thing to tweak their turn in point a bit. Not a big deal. We'll fix it next lap! :thumbup:

As a student with only 1 DE under my belt I am learning alot from all of you. I have taken many many lesson on percussion and drums and have learned to be a good student in my years of learning. It's really a 2 way street with student and instructor.

Tom, you are and will be a awesome instructor and from knowing you and reading your post's here on rennelist I am absolutly going to DEMAND that you are my instructor at the next DE whenever that will be.
see ya, Mike

3 more things and then you are on your own :)

1) pay close attention to early laps and the amount of room between you and the driver in front. I have found more students get fixated on the rear bumper of the car in front......and follow, good bad or otherwise. They don't realize they're even doing it until to call them on it.....back them off that rear bumper and the sessions will go much better.

2) once you've gotten them to a certain point (you'll know what I mean when you get there), and think they can go faster, allow it, but get them to talk themselves through it. Every corner they should be talking themselves through what needs to happen. It makes sure they are ready, it really settles what you've taught them.

3) one last thing is to establish GOOD hand signals before you get going. I have a few and thats it. Clinched fist - brake, shaking clinched fist - brake really hard :D
Waving like the old Braves wave (forward and back), - keep going don't lift
Palm up, raising up - lift (off the gas)
Palm up curling fingers (come here style) - back off the bumper of the guy in front of you.
Other than that point the entire hand to which ever direction I want them to go.
I do all these at a level so that it doesn't scare them and they dont have to take their eyes off the track.

...................Oh and teach them to watch those mirrors! Nothing worse then getting stuck behind the "train" :D

Nice thread. I enjoyed reading it...Remember one of my Manny stories..Ask you student if he is color blind before you get in the car..Makes flag discussions more meaningful..
See you all at Sebring 2007.
Pete

No wonder I can't ever see the black flag....night blindness! :roflmao:

:) Terrific thread, keep the advise coming. Only 2 weeks until sign-up for VIR.

As someone who started soloing last year and certainly not in a position to give advise....let me make one point.

A calm instructor is more effective than one who, for whatever reasons, likes to SCREAM!

I was at VIR in '05 with an instructor who was not used to the braking capabilities of a Porsche (he had a vette) and kept screaming for me to brake at the 4 marker going into turn 1 (I had been braking between 3 and 2). It was actually painful to my eardrums. So one one lap where there wasn't any traffic in front or behind me I did threshold braking at marker 4 and came to a COMPLETE STOP before turn in. I then completed the lap and pulled into the pit where I told him I didn't appreciate his yelling at me and if he couldn't appreciate my braking capabilities to get the F--- out of my car. He was fine the rest of the session and he signed me off in the next session.

We are all adults here and it is important to treat your student as such and for him to reciprocate..

Off my soapbox.

Some things to keep in mind (and yes, I am likely repeating others good advice):

1) Adhere to the K.I.S.S procedure, especially for a first timer. Plan out the vocabulary you will use and don't deviate from it. Make sure the student understands the terms as well, this way your instruction can be understood EVERY time.

2) Search out your student if possible. Its always nicer to get into a student car AFTER you have the chance to build a repoire and have a chance to see their car up close and ask them questions about the car and themselves.

3) Figure out as quickly as possible, the type of learner they are. Is it be reading a book? Watching a video? Taking a reduced speed ride with you? People learn at different rates and in different styles. Figuring out the type of student you have will influence the type of instruction you provide.

4) Plan ahead. You've driven the track before. You've had an instructor before. You know when to apply the brakes, turn and apply the gas. Don't ASSUME your student will know what to do. Remind them when to do these things, taking into account the amount of time it will take to tell the student and have them react to your instruction. Have that mental plan in YOUR head about everything.. not only about how to drive the line but what to do if the car infront does something unexpected (lays down oil, or a waving yellow is out, (or worse, a red); what if the car you are in catches fire? etc)

5) Anecdote. After a day of working with a student and discussing corners we struggled with we were chatting at a track dinner. During dinber, up came the story of how he had given up sailing after an accident (someting about a "boom" hitting his head") that caused him to loose most of the vision in one of his eyes. Hmmm. That would have been nice to know beforehand. plus, it explained why he thought he was hitting the apex when he was still several feet away. Needless to say, I have a new question I ask students before we get in the car ;)

There is way to much to sum up, but with all the other good posts, this thread makes for a good reference.

Someone else may have already said it, but, make sure YOU have fun. Be enthusiastic. Be excited about teaching. Ask them for some feedback. Maybe the student can't hear you; maybe they think you talk TOO much; maybe they think you talk too little.

There is a lot of good advice that I agree with. Here are a couple more things...

Control the situation from the start. I always made students take the first two laps very easy. Lap one, they are to point out all the corner stations to me. Lap two I want them to talk me around the track with what they are thinking and trying to do. They don't usually do that part very well, but it keeps the pace controlled at the start.

If you have a lot of feedback, bring them into the pits fo a short talk - stay in the car. You will overwhelm many if you give them too complex an idea.

Finally, (and this is what led me to stop instructing) take a hard look at safety equipment. Make sure the belts are properly installed, seats are mounted, Roll bars are actually roll bars and not exhaust pipe, etc. Make sure that belts actually adjust and fit you correctly. You would be shocked at what some people will do.

(Student here; never an instructor.)

Great point, and very much a two-way street as so much of this is a matter of temperaments. If you can, find some way for the student to tell you how they want to learn.

At the PDE several years ago I eventually realized I was the only student in the class with any prior DE experience. That was not an issue as the idea was to just learn something and have a little fun. After all, it wasn't racing school. Nevertheless, it was apparent that the instructors--all pros by any definition--were yucking it up and making sure the kids didn't hurt themselves. I felt like I was getting putting lessons from Tiger Woods, when what he really wanted to do was belt a 300 yard drive.

So on the last day I turned to the passenger seat and asked, "Hey Hurley, what am I doing wrong?" My instructor lit up like a Christmas tree and said, "Nothing, but you're doing it too early." From there he proceeded to pound on me like a piece of cheap meat and we finally got the P car rolling.

I had a story related to me during mentoring that I did not believe until it happened to me. If you feel that your student needs to be constantly directed on when to brake, turn, etc - be sure as an instructor not to stop the directions cold turkey. I experienced on day 2 of an event with a student similar to what John described above that the one lap I did not tell him to "break" before T1 at the Pocno North Course - so he didn't break and took the NASCAR bail out. When I asked what happend, he siad "you did't tell me to break" :eek:

If your are going to change you communication style/technique mid event - communicate this to the student before the run. Do not assume that they can do what they have been doing w/o your imputs. Make them show you that they can handle the situation.

Mark- I inspect every car before I ride. I ask who installed the safety eqt. I ask who performed the pre-event tech. I also look at the brake pads myself. I have been taught that if I have any uneasy feeling about a car, DO NOT GET IN. Great point about safety that you brought up.

I'm not shocked at all. That is one reason I think you instructors are heros.

Hand signals
 

+1 on the hand signals.

Once I was with an instructor who was using a Chatter Box and didn't go over his hand signals with me. The box cuts out and I have no idea what he wants me to do. We are coming down the hill at Lime Rock, nice and easy, me on the perfect line, and he starts karate chopping the air! :confused:

Noob that I am, I stuck my fist out the window and headed into the pits. Him: "What's wrong? You were doing great!" Me: "Didn't you just give me a "cut" signal?" Him: "Don't you know a "go for it" signal when you see one?" Me: "I do now." D'oh!

Well again thanks all for the continued great input. I really feel this thread has given me more experience than one year of instructing could have!!! The willingness to communicate and teach on this thread is truely amazing and all should be highly commended!!

I do like to respond hope it doesnt waste anyone's time so................

Kurt...I like the "I will be watching from turn X" I will put that in my little black book! thanks.

Larry..."them vocalizing and me quite" good advise I'll try!!
GO EAGLES!! Born and raised Philly boy myself!!!! (how bout that Cowboys game!)

Mark K. ...good stuff thanks again.

John H. WOW, that really does mean alot coming from you my adopted cyber instructor!! Before I took my first instructing school I downloaded and memorized the "Pilot Emeritus Program" and will be forever in you debt for that great info!! I direct all my students to it as well!

Chris...please dont sign me off yet!! I'm not ready, you still have too much to teach, thanks for all the good stuff!! The hand signals are great I will use them.

Eddie thanks...I WONT SCREAM!! Learned that from screaming in the OR when a patient was bleeding to death........never really worked there either!!

Racer, good stuff thank you for the input.

Mark, thanks again and sorry to hear about your decision not to instruct anymore, however you make a good point.

gbaker, good point, hope to see you around the florida tracks!?

Thanks again all, this thread has been invaluable to me and greatly advanced my instructing knowledge without even leaving the house!!!!

Hey;

We've talked about communication being the key, and indeed it is. Also make sure that the student realizes it is a two-way street. After I have impressed upon them that I am in control, that I am indeed God, and that they must do it my way, I always make sure to tell my students in the interview that this is a collaberative process, and that we are a team. I impress upon them that there is no room for missunderstanding or missinterpretation, so if there is anything that they do not 100% understand, that they should pipe right up and say so. Don't assume the obvious to be so.

Along those lines, there are some students that will not respond verbally. They have heard what you said, and are processing it internally. I make sure that they acknowledge when I have made a point to them.

The hand signal thing is something I have started doing more. As you begin to see different learning styles, you will find this working for some people quite well, either by itself, in conjunction with verbal commands, or some combination of both. True visual learners are the hardest to teach because they must SEE it done, so if it seems you are not getting through to someone, it may be due to this phenomenon, and then hand signals can be quite effective.

That's a good one!

There's another good, IIRC originally from Mark (Sunday Driver), goes something like this:

"If you chrash, I'll kick you ass before we even hit the wall!" :D
(correct me Mark how the line actually was, I heard this from Kim many many years ago)

I've used it once, student laughed first but when I told him with straight face that I'm serious, he got serious too.

LOL. That one was from DJ. Something like...
"You are going to crash. I hate to crash. If you start to crash, I am going to beat you to death before we hit"

Mine is:
"Don't try to impress me - you can't.
Don't try to scare me - I already am."

edit - My other favorite, that was a sticker on the dash of the passenger side of my Radical:
"When in doubt, go full throttle. It may not get you out of trouble but it will end the suspense sooner."

When going to fast in the slow sections you won't be able to be fast enough in the fast sections (since you've overdone it).. Teach your student to be slow enough before even trying to be fast enough. ;)

John, Mark, Anders (why is your name here?) more great quotes into the little black book, which can now also double as a comedy! Thanks for sharing, others with great quotes or stories feel free, I (we) learn tons from this stuff!!! tom

[QUOTE=tkerrmd]
Chris...please dont sign me off yet!! I'm not ready, you still have too much to teach, thanks for all the good stuff!! The hand signals are great I will use them.
[QUOTE/]

Brother I've given you all I know :D Take what we've all given you and find your own style. Your two main goals are to make sure the student learns and has a good time. Secondly that they don't hurt either of you or their equipment in attempting the first task. You will find (as I and most likely the rest of us regular instructors) that you can talk someone throught the entire w/e, some you'll have to talk with pretty pictures between sessions, etc. I had one student that every time I gave him a hand signal, it would spook him......drove me nuts. He just didn't get it no matter what I tried. He ended up leaving early the second day.......probably for the best. It was the most I had to work and got nowhere for it, but that happens I guess.
You're going to need every style we've given you, so try to emmulate and you'll be fine. But it WILL need to be done with conviction, last thing you want is for the student to think you're a newbie too........remember perception is everything :D

Chris thanks again for everything and taking the time to be one of my cyber mentors!...tom

Teach them never to give up on an apex. Show them that when they get lazy and miss their apex by six feet it can amount to as much as twenty degrees of turn which they will have to account for LATEr on in that combination. Teach them that driving their line means putting their tires in the SAME place lap after lap after lap. Only when they start DOING that should you let them put the hammer down.

Oh you are very welcome, maybe we'll get a chance to meet one day :) Come on up by way of Roebling or Road Atlanta and I'll teach you how to really drive :D

........just kidding of course

cooley, thanks good point.

Chris I have been to both. Roebling is not one of my favorites. But do plan to do Road Atlanta this year. Would be great to me up!!! And thanks again!!....tom

+1

Tony,
You really hit a nail there. This isn't "always be prepared for the doom"-training, rather let's have a great time! and I'm glad you mentioned two points. I've seen some instructors who tend to keep every thing sooooo serious and never even share a smile. I think the enthusiasm Tom seems to have is one of his greatest resources for instructing.

:roflmao: I just coughed up beer through my nose..

---

Tom,
Being an instructor doesn't mean you're not a student anymore. (This goes for all of us) We're just learning some "other" stuff at the moment. I strongly suggest you go back to the first thread you wrote and reread it again. If you master everything that was written there, you're in the top 10% of all instructors already. It's just like tracking actually. Repeat, repeat again and improve and repeat more and more.


I get the impression that you have a happy attitude towards instructing, some lemon instructors will not always be just as happy as you. Just don't let that sip over to you. A big smile to a student is always comforting - no matter what level.

granted RRR is not the most technical, but it has gotten better since the repave, have you been since? 10 times smoother and not as hard on tires......its almost a little to slippery (for lack of a better term).
RA bit me fatally a few years back with my last race car and I haven't been down there since (logistics nothing more :) )......maybe this year I'll have to make it a point to get down.

Magnus thanks and as for the smile, man I still cant stop doing that!!!!

Chris have not been since repave. I will keep my eye out for events there. Even considered the Instructor school coming up; but my third in as many months, they may really think I am crazy!!
I LOVE Road Atlanta!!!

A fantstic thread you folks are putting on here, really great information for all levels. Your combined experience is very impressive and you should all be very proud of both your skill and humility.

A couple of things I did not see so far:
1.) Please tell your student beforehand if you are a steering wheel grabber. I realize sometimes a wheel grab is the last resort to avoid an incident and I'm not talking about that. I'm referring to instructors that catch a student completely off-guard by suddenly and without warning grabbing the wheel to show the student they're off-line, missing an apex, etc.

It can be very unsettling when it happens and the student can begin fixating on whether or not you're going to do it again instead of what they're supposed to be doing. I'm not saying it's a bad teaching method at all -- but please tell your student before you go on track something like "Now I may grab the wheel to help show you this or that or if I feel we're in trouble" or "Next time through corner 6, I'm going to grab the wheel and assist you to show where the apex really is".

Nobody like suprises, especially when you're new. As already stated in many ways earlier, communication and trust are key in this relationship and warning the student breforehand is just being respectful in my opinion. It's a simple gesture that can go a long way with a new student.

2.) Are there any on-line bibles or collections about instructing that you guys feel are the sort-of holy grails about the art for those of us that are new to the game? If there are, a handful of links would be great.

Again, great thread and thanks.

1. I don't "grab" but I will tell you that I am about to "assist" you and lightly keep you on the appropriate line. But I would never Grab as to take over control of the car. If you're going to wreck, I'll leave that to you. My touching of the wheel would only be a slight coercion to assist you in "track" ing out properly......but you'd have fair warning because it would be a situation where you've done the same thing over and over again.

2. you're now participating in of the best instruction "bibles" you'll get online :) print it if you must :D

Here is a "speech". I haven't had to give it to any students but I know a few who have.

"You need to listen to me. If you don't listen to me, we will crash. I don't like crashing. If we do crash, I'm gonna start kicking your ass before the car stops moving."

The Rules for students:

Rule #1: DON'T PANIC.

Rule #2: When in doubt, floor it. It may not solve the problem, but it will definitely end the suspense.

Rule #3: Don't drive fast. Drive smooth. Like butter on a bald monkey. Fast will come all by itself.

Rule #4: Move your feet slowly, and your hands quickly (but smoothly). Squeeeeeeeeze the throttle.

Rule #5: Listen to your instructor. Do what he says. Never argue, or try to tell him why you can't do it the way he wants.

Rule #6: There is no Rule 6.

Rule #7: Stay on the line. Always.

Rule #8: Never look at the car in front of you. Look around it, over it, under it, or through it, but not at it. If you look at it, and he screws up, you will too.

Rule #9: Do not drive off the track. Stay on the pavement.

Rule #10: If your choices are a) spin, or b) drive straight off the track, drive off the track.

1.) I actually used the word "assist" in my sentence too :D , and I feel that's perfectly fine, especially when trying to get someone to track-out until there's no more track, which is harder when you're new.

I've had two instances this past year where an instuctor actully grabbed the wheel from my control to make me "stay-out" on a line my car did not like. Both instuctors were not Porsche guys (Mustang Cobra and C4 Vette) and without warning grabbed the wheel and forced me on the track where I did not want to be. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It really bothered me and both times I exercised my right to have them replaced with another instructor.

On the other hand, I've had instructors say "I'm going to show you what I mean" and put two fingers on the wheel and send me all the way to the proper track-out and that is wonderful when you're stuck on one corner because of habit.

I personally feel it was a great courtesy to let me know what to expect.

2.) Rennlist is my church.

Thanks again for your wonderful feedback everyone.

Good point about the wheel "assist" - I do not use it but I will discuss the possibility with the student ahead of time.

Lol, you crack me up Glen!

I like those :roflmao: although I would disagree with no #6, it should be along the lines of the throttle pedal comment. Brake doesn't mean: slam on the brakes and then let off once you've realized the car is upset and then mull over your screw up only to then have to settle the car, brake, turn , downshift, back to throttle, correct.........only to ask what I think you need to work on at the end of the session <<<<<re-coup from being out of breathe>>>>>.
Hows that for a run on sentence? :D Who's with me? I know there are a few of you laughing.......you kow just what I mean :)

That's exactly what I do. I don't want to spook you. I think most newer drivers (for some reason) think that they need to "follow" the pavement, and since a turn is a turn......they must turn. I try to start by telling my students (if I find they are the type to follow the pavement), that this is a race track and not street driving and that my goal for them is to get around it, not necessarily follow it. I try early to get them to understand the idea of "use all of the track". Why burn up tires by over input with the wheel, turn in less, track out more.....find the correct steering arch and hold it, don't force more steering than is needed. Thats very hard for people.

Ha....

I can only think of one universally useful reason to grab the wheel, and that is if you are trying to put it back on the steering column. Perhaps also if the student has geeked and let go of it, still on the column or not.

Anyone who grabs a steering wheel in any other circumstance would not instruct for me, ever again. Extremely poor form. Rude, discourteous, and completely unnecessary. If the student aint getting it, it is not THEIR fault, it is YOURS. You're supposed to be the learned one. Find a better way, Blockhead.

We here in the NE have a perfect example. Turn 6 at Watkins Glen is one of the most difficult turns to get people to trust you in. No matter how much you tell them, they simply do not trust that going that close to the outside wall, that far into a turn, is going to keep them alive.

Try this. "I understand that what I'm telling you does not make sense, and that it makes you completely nervous. Don't worry, NO ONE ever feels comfortable with it 'till they try it and find it works beautifully. Next time by, I am going to place two fingers on the back of your right hand and guide you to the proper turn in point. When I remove my fingers, turn in."

This is a non-invasive way of "suggesting" to them by physical means where you want them to be. It does not wrest control from them, and they can bail if they simply can't stand it. Many times, I've applied fairly heavy pressure to more strongly suggest that they trust me. "Hell...it's my side of the car that will stuff if I'm wrong, eh?" Some do, some pull out of it still, but I NEVER have touched the wheel or grabbed anything.

One of our region members never did a DE again after an instructor grabbed the wheel from her.

I have never grabbed the wheel from anyone but I have guided people many times. I tell them way ahead of time, tell them to go slower than normal and assist them so they realize what I want them to do. Sometimes telling someone where to go is much harder than showing/assisting them. Mid Ohio is a great track to do this with and helps your student get the flow much quicker, IMO.

Thanks guys this thread now is my bible of do's and donts for instructing!!
Jerry good stuff and thanks. Dont think I am at any level to touch the steering wheel of a student. I think I will safely guide him into the pit for a chat if that comes up.

Greg, good list, goes in my instructor book thanks......"butter on a bald monkey!" good visual!!!

Chris, thanking you AGAIN!!!! knew ya had more in ya!!!!

John, keep it coming, I have learned more here than in the Pilot Emeritus Program at this point!!!


To keep on thread...............what type of behavior makes one think, I need to bring this student into the pit for a talk??? How often does that happen??? And should you freely use that? or continue on track with the teaching??? I am ok with the normal stuff, it is the on edge student and situations I am trying to anticpate still...............

You guys are AWESOME thanks for all the info, just raised the IQ of the entire rennlist by 20 points!!

"Just when I think I'm out..........................they pull me back in"

My initial gut reaction to your last Q would be that unless the student is being a danger to you two or anyone else on the track, they haven't paid to sit in the pits, let them stay out, but you NEED to find a way to get through to them. You are an instructor......INSTRUCT. Unless someone is a complete retard, everyone can learn, you just need to figure out how (harken back to previous comments about the beginings of your w/e with this new student......all part of your prep work). And keep in mind, if you have given a direct instruction and they are failing to heed your instructions, you are in control, pull their ass into the pits (all the way back to their pad location) and have a nice stern chat with them. At that point its over for the two of you anyway, go find the C.I. and have him yanked (you want to try and avoid but do what you have to do)

I like the P-car club because you mostly get the mature (in mind not age necessarily) croud, who have money, understand value and saftey and are all to willing to defer to someone they feel knows more than they.....thats wy they are there. I wouldn't worry to much about yahoo's.......

I think rule #1, 2, 7 and 9 are the main causes of most beginner spins!

(i know 2 is kind of a joke though)

panic is sometimes a good thing. both feet in can solve 90% of the crashes ive seen. or rule 7 or 9 cause the other 10%

Rule #1: keep the car in control. (meaning you know where its going to go)
if it means driving off line, going in the dirt, or locking the wheels up to slide off the track to a safe area and keep from spinning, then do it.

MK

type of behavior that might cause someone to get a talking to in pit lane would include, not letting people pass, trying to pass without a signal. too aggressive of an attitude. Not listening to your instructions, constantly making excuses for not listening to your directions etc.

I have never had to do that with a beginner student but i have had a few intermediate/advanced students (that were compentent) but just didn't want to take any instruction.

Usually they thought they were fast and didn't need dead weight in the passenger seat. Sometimes I could get through to them by taking them for a ride in my race car (9/10ths) and they realize that they aren't all that fast and have somethings to learn, etc. Even better is if I can take them for a couple laps in their car but due to liability I don't do that very often and never ask.

Sometimes they just want to lap and continuing doing what they are doing, I am not going to sit in a car session after session if they are not going to be a student. Too much risk and I certainly don't get my jollies out of riding with them.

CHRIS.....I knew you wouldnt let me down!! More good stuff, you should write THE book!! thanks for the hundreth time...tom

Greg, good stuff, I guess since I am new to this and someone is cocky and seems to know as much as me I may have a tuff time instructing him?? Just want to do a good job?!

Also concerned about the student who is fairly good insisting on moving up. Not sure how your are really sure they are ready. And even if you are watching from a corner, hate to see my student cause an incident.

Last stupid question and another fear since I am still in instructor therapy is......who's "fault" is it when a student has any kind of incident with an instructor in the car. there is no way I cant feel totally responsible for the incident if I am in the car, or should I??

I have seen several cars hit the wall WITH an instructor in the car. One a close friend of mine. I asked him what happend and if he could have prevented it.. Also did he feel responsible.
He said, well he was going too fast missed the apex spun and hit the tires, **** happens!

Not sure I would be so calm....................

Tom, I can give you an answer to one scenario based on how my region handles it. If you are in the car with your student and they get Black flagged, you both go on record to have been Black flagged.

As a newbie instructor it is a good idea to realize when you are really not able to help the student. I had several guys in the last year or so that were top notch and there wasn't a lot I could do for them except tell them to go faster :) I got them a particular instructor (pro driver) that could really help them.

I have been in one car that hit a wall. Beautiful almost new 993TT with a B student. On the fourth or fifth turn I could tell the car wasn't right and I said that he needed to pit, at the only bad spot on the track (heading into Putnam turn 10) the car wouldn't turn and we were heading straight into the wall, fortunately we hit the curbing which caused the car to slide sideways (instead of straight on) into the wall that was lined with haybales. The passenger side tire was flat... I felt bad but certainly not responsible.

Wow Carm, I didnt know that I will check how it goes down here, thanks.

Greg, I will upgrade my student's instructor from me to someone more experienced if their last name is Penske!!!

And hope no incidents with my students, at least for the first year!!

Tom, if we (the more experienced) don't help you (figurative not literal) the less experienced, what will happen over time is more accidents, which in turn will bring on rules that us advanced guys won't like (not to sound selfish :) ). We help so you learn (hopefully) and in turn teach what you've learned (basic principles right ?)
Dare I bring this up because it always stirs the pot, but the issue of racers vs. strictly DE guys being instructors still remains and I as an ex-racer must stand for the racers. If one (you or anyone else hasn't pushed to or past the limits......how do you know when someone else does (hence your question). And I don't want to get off tangent in this thread, you have very good questions........newbie (obviously not a racer) type questions, so we need to focus on making anyone with these questions, as capable as we can given our obvious limitations (internet). Keep in mind that your limit may not be your student's. Your comment about going to another instructors class, just proves you want to do the right thing. I applaud your efforts and think its great you want to learn. I was half asked recently about the possibility of meeting someone at a track for and DE and give undivided attention to their education for that w/e (as apposed to running my usual sessions as well). I have thought alot lately about what it would take to put together an "arrive and learn" (arrive and drive).......maybe you could benefit from something like that from someone in your area....?

Chris you have been great. My ultimate goal is to start racing as well. Most likely NASA first, then PBOC then I will see. I love cars, driving and WANT to race. I have used the PCA events and progressed to instructor to get to supersolo passing events and spring board to racing. My friend has a pair of full race 944's I will start to race in the next season.
I always felt (in the back of my mind) that unless I had full race experience I would not really qualify as a very good instructor.
Also in my experience of DE's always was more "impressed" if my instructor was a racer.
However I have to admit, now that passing through the ranks and learning and seeing what it takes to be a good instructor I now realize that someone can be an awesome instructor and have never raced, as I now know many.
Also, many ways and backrounds to teach and instruct and I appreciate anyones knowledge and experience no matter what the backround now that I have been around a little more.

As for arrive and drive and or learn. This would be a more intense session than a regular DE situation and obviously advance one faster. I am seeking out a professional "coach" to spend an entire day with (an ex-pro racer) to help take me to the next level of driving. Again something I was also hoping would be a benifit of getting to an instructor level.

Many DE forums now serve as portals to racing. In our area Chin events have advanced solo groups with full passing. PBOC has just started a "super solo" run group with full passing. This way one can gain valuable experience without the pressure (or excitement) of a full race situation. However, certainly this breeding grounds will lead to the next generation of racer.....so for me who knows....

Again, you and everyone have been awesome, I just wish more PCA members or drivers in general had the opportunity to share in a forum as great as this one!!!! Guess rennlist could do some more advertising at PCA events. It has certainly advanced my cyber skills and knowledge much faster than just showing up at a track event and depending on my instructor to tell me all I need!!

To be SMOOOOTH AND IN THE ZONE. It's so hard for a new track driver. I remember when I first got my porsche and wore a blister in my shifting hand just going round and round the on and off ramps. It was so fun, but I was so out of touch with good car control then. I went to my first DE and my instructor slowed me down as we began the BALLET of smooth driving. My soul went for eardrum piercing Hip Hop while he tought Ballet. So hard to learn. How to bring a student into the zone where concentration is so beautifully intense that time both stands still and your session is over in an glorious instant. My instructor helped me begin my journey to the zone as he tought me the "slow becomes fast" smoooth movements that accelerate your soul. When you get it right, and blend into your car, the mechanical and flesh join in fluid motion, burning through the track.
Thats what I seek to convey to my students. They begin in small steps, and slowly accelerate with the joy of the Zone.

Tom: Who said I was calm? : )

Jack

Tom, good luck where ever you go with it, I'm sure you'll do great. Keep those eyes in the mirrors :D

Mark & Greg,

Thanks, those are the ones. I remember the "list" too, I have it saved somewhere.

Unless it's "I'll kick your ass type o talking", I think most of the talking should be done at the pits. Warm up and slow down laps are good also when there is not high speed involved. Especially when dealing with novice students, too much talking will just overload their brain and almosyt nothing goes through.

I talk between the sessions, show the line on track map etc. I used to give rides more often but recent law suits and other bull**** like that has stopped me doing it. Still do it occasionally if I know the student well.

Also, I've had e-mail discussions after the track with my student, it's a pretty good way to discuss in more depth about correct high speed driving, technique etc. Share some video (mine and students), point out good & bad, answer queations.

Great thread...As a cdi for Chin, I do a lot of student check rides for solo signoff. When I get in the car for a check ride, I explain to the student what I expect of them and then let them know that I probably will not say too much for the first couple of laps. I tell them not to try to impress me by trying to do 4 wheel drifts through the turns or driving at 10/10ths. What I look for is smooth inputs on the steering, throttle, and brakes. I am also looking for consistency...even if they are slightly off line, if they are consistent about it, then we can tweak that. I also watch their eyes and hands. The cones should only be used as reference points and the student should not have to be dependent on the cones to the degree that I believe that they are just driving from cone to cone. (I often set the cones and it is much more difficult to place them when you are driving the track slowly in a pickup truck.) After I have observed the student for a lap or two, I give them some feedback on my perception of their driving and then ask them to let me know each time they believe they could have done something a little better. (i.e. I missed that apex because I turned in too early/late.) The most important things that I am looking for are safety, courtesy, and attitude and would I feel safe driving with this person on track directly in front or behind me. There are other less tangible things that are going on in the check ride, but I have rambled quite a bit already. This is just some background info to the "how do you know when they are ready" question. What I wanted to stress to all the instructors out there is that they really need to make certain that the student is ready before they recommend him/her to the cdi. There is nothing more deflating to the ego of a driver than to tell them that you do not believe that they are ready and could probably benefit from more instruction. I have had to do this and it is no fun for me or the student.

Mike Dayton
'95 968 M030 Coupe
'91 944 S2

Some good advice I got in a funny way from one of my first instructors:

After our first session together on track we got out of the car and he put his arm around me and said "come with me, we are going to find the event master and get some of your money refunded to you." I was excited about getting some of my money back, but did not understand why he thought he could do this, so I asked " why will I get some money back?" The instructor told me that since I was only using half of the track I should get half of my money back!

I did a much better job of driving the line and "tracking out" after that.

Good one. I tell my apex and turn out challenged students that as much as I would like to have some "extra" track handy should the need arise they paid for the entire track, cannot stash any for later and should use as much of it as required and as often as required for best results.

Finn: Could you expand on your lawsuit concerns? Do you know something we don't know? Do you give rides to lawyers??

Thanks
Jack

I don't think there is anything specific beyond the CGT wreck and other well publicized lawsuits, but Finn can clarify.

I bet that you have to worry less about the lawyer passengers than you do about the estates or family of wealthy passengers. Take my word for it on this one.

Potential liability is definitely on my mind when it comes to considering whether to become an instructor. But any concern about liability is far outweighed by my concern about having a student hurt or kill me (I am actually worried more about being able to support my family than I worry about death or painful injuries myself). I think the biggest risk would be from a student who appears to get it, but, for whatever reason (mechanical, brain fart, etc . . .) finds themselves over their heads without the requisite experience to extricate both of you back out. Sometimes things can happen so quickly (mechanical failure, brain fade) that an instructor will not have time to ensure that a wreck does not happen. You can lead a horse to water . . .

That said, I would probably do it out of gratitude if asked by PCA, and neither I nor my estate/family would sue someone if I got hurt, so don't get all paranoid on me :D

TD

With respect to instructors, I have really only had good ones, including those who have ridden along with me (many are rennlisters). I have yet to have a bad one. To me, though, the one thing that separates the good instructors from the great instructors is that the great instructors: (1) make you feel like it is all about you rather than all about them; (2) make you feel confident and good about the things you are doing correctly, and find positive ways to help you improve the things you do not do as well; and (3) LISTEN to the student and adapt themselves to the student's goals and ways of learning.

Two people can deliver exactly the same message. One will make you feel good about what you are doing. The other will make you feel like you are a loser. Guess which technique adds to the comraderie of the club and helps the student learn faster . . . ;)

The best instructor I had was my most recent. His liberal use of the F word as in "F yeah", clapping and his general excitement made the whole thing a lot of fun.

As a Student I want quick, well placed Screaming into my ear as I go through the turns. Because thats what I will do to myself when I am on my own but still learning.

I'm not sure I mentioned this before; if I did...well, too bad. I do listen carefully to what the student has to say for sure. But, I listen to what the student doesn't say. What, you say are you talking about?
I listen carefully through the head set to their breathing. Now, don't jump the gun here, OK? Often, a student who is very anxious and nervous, are virtually hyperventilating. I make it my business to carefully listen to their breathing...if they're too nervous, then I can work on relaxing them. If there's no breathing at all, I get concerned for different reasons.
I hate to admit this, but I actually put a student to sleep while driving at the Glen. That's right! So, I'm not sure if, as an instructor and driver, I'm so boring...or...so smooth that my student became too relaxed. There's more to this story, but I'll stop now. It was very funny then and it still is to me.

Yap, that (CGT) was the one I was thinking and also I heard that someone gave ride to his friend who end up suing because they chrashed.

I personally don't get it and think if so stupid and ****ed up with with so many "sue them happy" people around, who knows.

Well, have to admit, the law suit and liability stuff was not discussed in the DE instructor school?!
I still am stupid enough to believe in the system and the club and think the joy of teaching outweighs the potential negatives mentioned and look forward to doing it for many years!

Just wondering how many instructors have or have not raced and does that make you a "better" or more knowledgeable instructor? Are just DE instructors who have never raced (me) not of the same caliber? I would think so, but dont want to insult anyone, as that was my personal belief when I was a student.
What thought process should I use for myself if some feel that that is not in fact the case!
Hate to ask for more advise at this point for fear of you guys being sick of my novice questions!

Tom, the liability thing is something that should be discussed in the instructor school, IMO. These days, it is a big deal.

It really, really makes you think about what you say to your students....every single word. I do advanced instructing for 3 PCA regions, as well as conducting the advanced classroom for one of these regions. I really have to catch myself, especially in class, when a student asks me about the "racing line" or other racing-related questions, because we are categorically forbidden from discussing racing in a PCA DE instructional setting.

It also makes you very cautious when you get the inevitable "should I turn off my PSM?" questions. You will have to tell them "it is your car, you decide" and pretty much nothing more, for liability reasons. Then, if they leave it on, you can use it as a learning tool. Whenever it intervenes (and PSM has an extremely high intervention threshhold), I bring my student to the hot pit & tell them that PSM just saved them from a major incident, and we discuss why.....SAFELY.

I have raced & race. Do racers make better instructors? No. In fact, many racers cannot articulate what makes them fast, etc. I think good instructors stand out regardless of whether they race or not.

Keep asking those good questions!!!!!!

:thumbup:

This is somehting a lot of people overlook when thinking of instructors. Just because they are racers doesn't mean they can teach you fast.

I agree. However, a good instructor, exposed to more experiences, will be a better instructor. IMO, a good DE only instructor who then races will become an even better instructor. But the reverse does not follow - a poor DE only instructor is not going to become a good instructor simply because they race.

Racing exposes you to many situations that a DE does not and expands the instructors toolset and awareness.

Agree completely, SundayDrover.

Aww, Sunday took all my thunder away from me. I have to agree that racing in and of itself will not make you a good instructor, but it will give you a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw from, and can make you a better instructor.

You guys continue to give a wealth of knowledge that would take years to aquire!! I appreciate being advanced in cyber school.
Will take as much of this as I can with me to the Moroso DE school and my students in the future.
I do want to move on to the open passing group at PBOC supersolo and on to racing.
I wanted a solid skill set in instructing first.
Then will take all my additional experiences and translate them into hopefully useful information for my students to drive safely, smoothly, and have fun.
I dont think one can say thank you too much, so once again, thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tom

Hi Tom, thanks for a really good thread! lots of great advise here!

on Braking...
when I teach threshold braking I use a brake pressure scale of 1 to 10. (10 being lockup), and will also squeeze the upper bicep of the student to show how hard I want them to apply the brakes.... if the pressure remains constant.

Also watch for students taking pit in, by mistake instead of staying right at moroso T10... and make them keep out of the line, when comming out of the pits! (especially at homestead!)

Veloce Raptor wrote: [W]e are categorically forbidden from discussing racing in a PCA DE instructional setting.

This is an interesting issue for those of us who are doing DE in preparation for racing. I have a long way to go, so perhaps my input doesn't mean that much, but most instructors have asked about my goals and have focused their teaching accordingly. That's been great for me.

Obviously, basic technique - especially smoothness and consistency - is still the focal point, but it's terrific to have an instructor who is supportive of those who want to learn to race. My last instructor never mentioned the "r-word" but did suggest I practice driving off the line, experiment with different apexes from different braking points, etc.

Ron, that doesn't mean we don't answer individual students' questions in the privacy of their cars. When I work with a student in the 2 most advanced groups, and they indicate a clear interest in going racing, I make a judgement call: If they drive like a homicidal wack-job, I demur. If they have a good head on their shoulders, have talent & good judgement, and believe in working incrementally, I will share with them a few pointers as to why racing, and some driving tactics in racing, are very different from DE's.

But, as a group, we are not allowed to teach "racing" in a DE.

Also, Tom, if you are assigned to this car as your next Green student, fake a serious illness:


http://www.imagecross.com/images/7471box.jpg

I recognize those doors - it's a Lambo, right?

Um....yeah...yeah, that's the ticket. It's the development mule for the "Gal Lardo"....
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MAY NOT BE WORK, OR BREAKFAST, SAFE
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http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos.../gal_lardo.jpg

Damn that's ugly.

But in that vein- I will tell particular students who are consistently wide of the apex (pick your audience carefully):

"Apexes are like vaginas- you just have to stick it in there."

Hey;

As others have stated, instructing is something somewhat apart from driving in general, or racing in particular. It is obviously more down to the individual than their avocation. As someone said, aritculating proper performance can be difficult for even some DE instructors. See my driving aticles. They are my way of figuring out the plotline and verbage for these sometimes esoteric topics! Racing level driving is a highly instinctual and randomly variable thing that is beyond - or at least largely apart - from most of the DE world.

My feeling is that the main problem with racers being DE instructors is in their attitudes. First, they must be conscious of dialing back their natural competitiveness to a level that suits the DE venue and the ability of their student. They must also dial back their egos so as not to condescend to the recreational DE driver. These transgressions probably are not nearly common, but I know they happen on occasion.

We all should strive to resist B.M.O.C.-ism at whatever level we find ourselves. DE goals are much better serviced by humility.

Hey George...you must be the same George that instucted me in the 944 in November. I love that quote! I had a really good time, your enthusiasm made event one of the best ever. :thumbup: :biggulp:

wow great pics and thanks for another great line for my little instructor book George!!

Some novices will grip the steering wheel too tightly; this will also cause their arm muscles to tighten and make it more difficult for smooth inputs. While this suggestion won't relieve the cause of the tension, which may be related to not looking far enough ahead, it will reduce the muscle tension in their hands/arms if you tell the driver to wiggle his fingers - preferably when driving in a straight line :)

If you have them point to the flag stations as they go by (without taking their hands off the wheel but by lifting the index finger), they release a bit and let the death grip go. I usually try to get my students to breathe and wiggle on each strait until they get to doing it on their own. If they have arms stretched out to reach the wheel.....thats bad, have them pull the seat forward (prior to the session :D ) otherwise it leads to arm fatigue and tension.

John, Chris, more good stuff, you guys are amazing!!!!

All this advice to tom, maybe I need him to take a ride with me since I am such a snail!

Anytime Andrew!!!!!

Thank you Steve- yes that was me. The quote is actually from an instructor I had many years ago from NNJR- a great guy whose name I don't recall. It's ironic that in becoming or being an instructor I frequently recall the good and bad of ones I had as a student and try to emulate the good of course.

I had very few bad ones- maybe two or three- but the biggest faults in my book were being overly critical (and stifling enthusiasm), being a braggert (I don't normally do DE's- I'm just here to practice in my new GT whatever) or just sitting there and doing nothing.

Also (for what it's worth) when my students do the death grip I make them drive with their fingertips and tell them to remember to do this every time they feel themselves becoming overly excited. Some guy named Haywood taught me that- when I was holding on for dear life and trying to drive at the same time.

Good stuff George, thanks......
Makes me think of another question which may be cool to see some of the answers.

If you have had negative criticism or negative feed back from a student, what was it, so I can avoid it?? I doubt anyone on this thread has but maybe they have heard some from a friend?!

you guys have been great!!!! :cheers:

The best place to find negative criticsm is on the bathroom walls! :D

Since I am usually armed, they haven't dared yet.


;)

OK, all of a sudden you guys become "unhelpful"! LOL!!

:p

That's why they talk about you behind your back......

G.

Stop staring at my arse, sugar booger! :biggulp:

Seriously, one thing that I detested as a student was constant negative feedback. I still see instructors like that in our region. That's one thing I've told myself I would never do. I think positive reinforcement goes further to develop students at this activity than just pointing out the things they do wrong.

G.

I could not have said it better, by a long shot. This is SPOT-ON.

And I agree--we still have some of the Old Way folks here.

Does the phrase "I'm positive that your lines really suck" count as positive criticism? :icon107:

You anticipating instructing Frankie Goes To Hollywood soon, Larry?

:D

As long as you compare them to ghettoracer at the same time.

While opening your wallet & letting your dozens of snapshots showing you with famous DROVERS accordion out...

You guys are just constant entertainment!!!! :thumbup:

Then overcook the corner, go 4 wheels off and say that you were in control and blame it on mechanical problem.

That's how we roll, dawg....


http://www.imagecross.com/images/7471box.jpg

That's funny, I tell Dave that all the time. Hey, at least they'll get a chuckle out of it. Better than the guy that just sits there telling you "wrong...., wrong....., wrong......".

G.

LMAO! Yeah, like he said: "It was an oversteer over correction that resulted the car going low speed (~25 mph) off the track on the exit of T14. The rotation of the car WAS under control, how ever the path of the car was not exactly. Owner was riding in car when the brake fade happened. The 2 wheel off was not caused by a driver's error. It is a mechanical issue."

.....and then grabs your wheel w/o warning....

I'm pretty sure that if someone grabbed my wheel when I was a student, I would have punched them (or a nice elbow in the gut). I've calmed down a bunch since then..........

G.

He still does it. Did it to me when I was in my first year as a DE student back in 2002, in the middle of Big Bend. Thankfully, there is not a lot that rattles me...but I still hollered "What the hell are you doing????"

The first time I met JayLo was at a MW AX/TT in the late 90's. His instructor grabbed his wheel and his Viper did about three donuts. It was kind of funny. Not sure why you need to grab them wheel at MW, there's nothing to hit!!!!!!

G.

I think it is a power thing.

I am not trying to be rude but can we please get back to posting tips, suggestions on instructing versus chit-chat? :)

No.

And stop being rude.

Good Point, Carm. Hmmmm....

I have "yelled" at two students. Both guys had been doing soooo well at breaking bad habits, relaxing, and using proper smooth control inputs.

The first guy lifted in the middle of a turn... I don't remember when or where, but it was a high speed turn and the car got a little wierd for a moment. Fortunately, it was either a 924S or a BoxsterS (Can't remember which). I said instantly and emphatically, "DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN!" Reiterating in a calm voice why you did not want to do such things, and now having a sudden understanding, he said "Don't worry... I won't!"

The second guy suddenly STOMPS on the peddle braking for the Inner Loop at WGI. "EASY" says I, quite loudly. Down to a merely perplexed voice, "You had been doing so good. Where the Hell did that come from, and why?" "You're right. I don't know why?" was the reply. Back to calm and supportive voice, "smoothly, squeeze the controls, don't make my head fly off, eh?" He laughed.

Sharp commands called for and rendered immediately, followed by positive reinforcement.

John, thanks for posting some more great tips.

I know I'll get flamed for this and BELIEVE me I have no intention of descrediting ANYONE in this board but the thing is in the US everyone who's been at the track a few times with an instructor seems be evolve to an instructor himself as "natural" next step kinda of thing...

Here in Europe to be an instructor you have to be invited to this, get paid very well for doing this (for each working day), including hotels, meals, etc... BUT all drivers are very experienced full bore racing drivers (not unsual to see some with an international carrer). This is particularly helpfull if you're instructing on a new track where an experienced race driver needs 10/20 laps on his own and he's reading to instruct, this is possible because some have 20 years of racing and the younger ones come from the Karting...

Holy****! Paid? PER DAY???

I need this gig! Hey...I have an FIA "B" license! I'm qualified!!!


:D :D :D :D :D

+ 10 :thumbup: Hook a brotha up.

In all fairness though, am I not correct that in Europe you have to go through so much more than we here in the states just to get a street drivers license? My understanding was that changing tires and other basic mechanics were required. Maybe it was just in Germany.......anyone?
But after all the money I spent on racing over the years (ago), I feel like I'd like to get paid back :D

Usually $350 a day plus expenses (Hotel, meals, etc)

Some tracks have their own instructors associated to local racing schools and again these are amateur/pro drivers who do this for the extra cash but certainly not the pleasure or risk. And this were I find odd that all these great instructors in the US are available for nothing...

Its the pro's loss because if people who never raced or know pretty much nothing about racing are available for tution for free... why would the clubs pay someone to do the job???

Must not forget that every specialized and skillful job is paid and the most difficult it is, the higher you get paid... don't you pay a surgeon to operate? don't you pay a football player to play? Why wouldn't you pay someone who spent ALOT of money, time and have the skill????

I agree..............I'm going on strike :D
Problem is that there are so many people able to take my place, and its so easy to become an instructor, there's new ones coming every day. :(

And that is a BIG part of the problem. There are too many people becoming instructors who have only a rudimentary understanding of how to drive, and have limited car control abilities. But that is another thread.

Kiko, in all fairness you seem to be comparing apples to oranges so to speak. It is one thing for a totally volunteer club trying to provide instructors to beginner students who have no skill set. and an experienced driver who needs professional driving lessons.
Certainly the later is really a vocation the former at best a hobby.
Also, to become instructors in our area still requires several years of solo driving experience and then are "invited" to participate in a driving instructor school.
The majority of the people who attend the school for the first time "usually DO NOT" advance to instructor level and are invited to repeat the school next year.
Again, in South Florida, the DE instructor school is taken very seriously. There is a nationally recognized didactic formal program of four sessions each followed by 4 on track sessions and role playing with a mentor.
Certainly doesnt put you at a professional instructor level but for a volunteer organization it is excellent.

Many good comments in this thread. One additional thing that I like to do is to practice entering a turn off-line at reduced speed before a sign-off when there is no traffic. You can ride with a student and they may never get in a situation where someone does not lift and they get stuck on the inside entering a turn during a pass. They are comfortable on-line but are not prepared for an off-line entry into a turn and can get into trouble if it happens.

Mark

I hate to disagree with you Tom, but I must. I have to side with Larry (who commented on my comment) that the problem with the entire program is just that........its a program. Its self serving and the only way to do so is to promote whoever shows signs of ability, into the instructor pool to help support the ever growing interest in DE's. There is no guarantee that you (figurative not literal) as a new instructor would be paired with someone who knows less than you.
The program I took, hosted by Pete Tremper (who I know watches these posts) was a one day event and at the end, if your final instructor thought you had what it took, you were in. But being "able" to instruct and know "what" to instruct and "how" are all different things. My entry was based on trust by them of what I told them my experience was (my experience was in SCCA racing not moving up the DE ranks, I walked right into the program from the outside). Now I happened to have been honest with them and had instructed once for the host (of the class) region. But what did they really know of me ......of others like me. They need to keep bringing in instructors as others drop off or become unavailable on a regular basis. But it would be my guess that the "qualifications" aren't as strict as they maybe should be (IMHO).Number of events means nothing, but what you learned is the most important. I commend what Mr. Tremper and those like him do, its ALOT of work. But bulk isn't always best, its the reason I don't subscribe to wharehouse club shopping (costco etc).....bulk's not always cheaper or any better than smaller quantities, its just more.
Quick example, I had a student last year, fairly competent driver. He was not smooth and he was not fast. He had been at this same track 9 times with another organization that signed him off early on and set him free. He learned and kept bad habits, all because he wasn't properly taught. He spent alot of money and had tons of track time, but wasn't worth crap. I would be willing to bet he could have become an instructor. Great personallity, attitude, common sense, just the wrong education. I had him make tire pressure changes, showed him a few easy tricks to being smooth and he got MUCH faster by mid w/e. He knew it, I knew it and other commented about him. Point being, that the amount of money or number of DE's to me don't make one a capable instructor candidate, just an available one. And what's going to happen as available outweights capable? Time may tell.

Chris, valid points. This past October, one of the PCA chapters I instruct with had its annual instructor clinic where we refresh old skills & evaluate new instructor candidates. This time, I was asked to be a "mentor" and help role-play with & evaluate some of these candidates, in actual instructing situations My role-playing was as different level students in different situations and/or learning difficulties, to see how they would handle a variety of situations. I had the opportunity to ride with/drive/role play with 4 different candidates, IIRC. And other mentors also rode with my 4, and vice versa, for a variety of points of view. One candidate was REALLY on the ball, and I have him 2 thumbs up. Two were pretty good, and started out slightly inarticulate in language appropriate to various students' skills, but rapidly improved as the sessions wore on. I gave each one thumb up. And one just didn't have "it". All these opinions/evaluations were echoed by the other mentors who rode with my 4. We "hired" the 3 and suggested the one who didn't make it work on specific skills, with a reevaluation in a year. This approach seems to work really well, since the 3 of mine we hired all worked that weekend with actual students & did pretty well!

Chris, glad you disagreed with my post just my opinion for Kiko since he is out the our country. I as always learn a great deal from you very insightful posts and appreciate the input! Still learned even more from ya!!
Thanks again.
Veloce...just went through what you described this past weekend. My "mentor" wast the CTI and really gave me a hard time as a green student, virtually everything you could do wrong on a track, he did, actually to the point the corner workers said something to him!!
I knew he was ultimately doing it for my benefit, and I must admit, I learned as much from him in that one sesson on track then just about this entire thread, he was truely an awesome teacher.
I really do think the system you describe works and is really as good as it can get for a volunteer club.
These guys are great instructors because they take instructing VERY seriously!!! And are REALLY good at it! From what I have seen in the past two schools I just participated in there is less than a 50% pass rate and we were told up front most need to take the course the next year before they are successful.

I must admit that I printed out this thread and handed it out as a teaching tool cause I was bragging about you guys so much , I hope no one minds me sharing this thread with the rest of the world,
you guys have been really terrific!!!!

tom

Hmmm. See, now my experience (unlike yours and Toms) was very different. I had one "mentor" with me the entire day. He and I did more giggling about his Pontiac G6 that we had to ride in (his) then talked about instructing. The end of the day (previously unannounced to the group) we switched "mentors" and I got a very well experienced, salty ol' dog. Well I knew from my "interview" with him that I had to put it all on the table. I'm a pretty good "people person" when I have to be, so I turned it up a notch and off we went (now in my car since he brought a Spec Wrecker Ford). At times he scared me because his driving style was so Spec Wrecker and we were n my 993........you don't drive those the same :D I had to break from form a number of times and tell him that role playing was over and he needed to woah it down in my car, and I wasn't kidding. He was having such a good time flicking my car around I think he forgot what it was we were doing. I've never had a student capable of driving like that out of the box!
Anyway, I passed (he gave me rave reviews to the CI), but I felt lik it would have been way to easy for people to get thru on any given day. Now maybe if I hadn't been aware of who he was and did a crappy job he would have shunned me from the event, maybe that was the strategy .......get them to let their guard down and then hit 'em with the ultimate test when they least expect it. Still haven't decided on that one. But you guys seemed to have gotten alot more "instruction" out of instructors school.

I've never had to do that... but that is a good line. I haven't had a student who was bad enough to make me want to get out and stop help him/her all together. I established a firm command from the get - go.


All good points. I haven't stop instructing myself, but I've skip a lot of events in 2006. I certainly often feel like I don't get appreciated enough and there is no point. Doing it for love and passion can only go so far...

Tom, to be a really good instructor, you need to be able to quickly decide what one error is the most important to correct at that moment since you only have time to correct one. Then you should be able to anticipate the error before it occurs and give some input so to avoid the error again.

On a personal note, you should also critique your instructing sessions internally every time you instruct and try to improve. If you continually do this, and invite other trusted instructor's input, you will become a very competent instructor. Yes, our program is very limited in its instructor training, but you can and should take it upon yourself to be the best you can be.

Just hang at the Driving Dynamics trailer and you'll do great!!!

Oh, and something else. Get your student in the proper seating position before you go out. This is very important since almost every newbe you get will be sitting too far back.

Personally;

I don't find that the Ride from Hell training method produces the desired result (if that's what you got, Tom). It is NOT a good training method in my opinion. Regardless of whether you are supposed to be able to handle that or not, it takes an already nervous prospect and really throws them off the scent. The only thing you can really do as the instructor/candidate is pull them into the pits, and then you are wasting track time. I suppose there is some benefit there, but I prefer to spend the time driving and teaching.

I had a guy do that to me years ago, out of region, 2nd time at the track. The only thing I learned was that I thought he was a jerk. Interestingly, years later he apologized for it, saying he had come to realize it was not a productive method. I never really held it against him, but we are better friends now. ;)

I prefer the subtle approach. Most anyone realizes when they have been hit in the head with a hammer. I damn well expect them to be able to fix the easy stuff, and so I don't waste time on it. I do more subtle things to see how aware my prospects are. The classic hand on the shifter up the straight is an easy start point. Turning twice for corners, slight drifts before turn in, pulsing the brake or gas. These things I do to fairly slight debrees.

Many people are not finesse drivers themselves, and so don't realize I am doing something "wrong." We then go into discussions of why they should correct these seemingly minor things. Of why they are ultimately important to future developement. It matters not whether they are upsetting the car at this pace. They are unnecessary, and therefore should be corrected before the task gets more complicated.

The obvious is just that, but the subconscious fault is the most in need of correction. Take it from subconscious to conscious, then get rid of it. It will pay off later. Even if the student is never an on-the-edge driver (where it REALLY counts), they will be smooth as glass.

EXCELLENT advice.

I go one better and usually ask the student to critique me. Whether they are a first timer or been to a few (which is good) they have an opinion of how you were with them. You (I), predetermine after a short period of time, how you think they'll learn best (if you've done your job well). Why not get the students perspective and see if you were right. I always tell them to be honest in their assessment and not hold back because it helps me for future students. You can then do with it what you will, but its insite to whether or not your perception of yourself is as accurate as you thought :D

John,

I sooooo agree with you on the driver from hell. When our region started the process, some of the old timers took it to the extreme. The first "student" I went out with just "drove" his car. Being a newb, I tried to play along. At one point I was about to go off on him. Once I told him to drive out to the entry cone and he actually drove over it, telling me that that's what I told him to do. It's kind of funny now that I look back at it but at the time, it was frustrating. It's a no win situation. The second "student" I rode with started gripping at me about not telling him to look ahead and then went on to show me how to look ahead. He was looking (and talking) so far ahead that he started missing the apexes, then proceeded to take his car off track on the inside of an apex and flung mud all over the apex of the fastest corner of the track. He acted like it was the car's fault.

So, needless to say, my experience was pretty negative.

G.

I'm just curious, has anyone ever had a student tell you that you were a lousy instructor?

I had one leave mid Sunday because he just wasn't getting it no matter what I did or said. Does that count :D
I didn't take it personally, he just had no clue. Nice guy, kinda reclusive but......
I do remeber him saying he was retired, no spouse and now was an "artist" if that helps anyone in the future :D

Yeah, my oldest son! He just needed someone who talked alot, and I am not that chatty. Once he got better and just needed pointers, he changed his mind. :roflmao:

Not yet, but I am sure it will happen some day.

YEs my wife.

FWIW;

North NJ Region provides all participants with an info card. Each card has the name of their "significant other" for the weekend along with other basic contact info. Each card is also for evaluating the other party, the student their instructor, and vice versa. If people take the time to fill them out and hand them in, this info is collected and entered into a database.

No need to be verbalized, if you're a good instructor but not a particularly good driver (without proven results in serious racing) if you get a good driver on your side shaving a sec or 2 off of your time you'll just feel ridiculous...

Mitch you and Bob were AWESOME mentors and should be proud of how the school and track day went. I will never forget it and will continue to strive to grow and improve as an instructor and driver!!!

thanks again for all you help!! :thumbup:

Chris
Got to admit with that kind of experience I see your point. Our DE instructors are of THE highest caliber and are IMO like pro driving instructors.
I think you would feel different if you had been in one of the schools I attended!
tom

John as always excellent points. Our school was set up to really cover both ends of the spectrum. First out we really had a first time bad green student who was supposed to make alot of mistakes.
I learned from that that one needs to pick out the important stuff almost one at a time and work to correct, not overload the student.

Next time out was your approach, advanced blue beginner student. who did alot of the more sutble things that you mentioned.
From this I learned to really pay attention to the details, where their hands are, elbows are, feet are and where are they looking and how are they breathing.
Different level of instructing and also learned alot from that!

Chris,
I totally agree with this and it is what I do at the end of the day as well. Also kinda checking throughout the day if they are "getting" what I am saying and is it too much too little.
The student usually hands me their eval of me to "turn in" I assume for me to review as I do theirs with them.
This is a never ending learning process, and also what makes it some much fun, to never stop learning and enjoying the students!!

John,
that is a very important point and the last weekend I instructed the registrar gave me the usual info package. But said hey we did something different this time.
they included and info card that the student filled out ahead of time. that way I know what car they had, what modds, what they do , what their experience was ect. It was very helpful in jump starting the intial interview (almost like a dating match.com) you start out at a different level and speeds the process.
Funny my student also put " drove this track alot on grand turismo by playstation" I thought it was a joke but come to find out that people actually can and do learn track layouts that way!!

See thats another thing I have yet to experience. I would love to know if my students have gotten eval. sheets for me. I make a habit of asking for the critique because I've never been presented with anything formal. I do always try to show my students what I have written of them so they have in mind what to work on the next time. But in truth, I don't know how good that even is. They don't get to keep a copy and most don't have any log books.......so my words go where? Into the abyss?
These are some of my basic gripes about the system. I know its a volunteer thing.......but so is SCCA and those buggers keep track of everything. I believe DE guys would get alot more out of this deal if they had a log book that they were required to present to the next instructor so we'd have a start point to work with. It would save so much time and effort..........but what do I know right :)

Chris, I really think that a student keeping a log book of his events for his instructor to write in would be absolutely priceless.
It could be handed from instructor to instructor each being able to read the former comments on the student and have a good idea the direction the student is moving in.
I will suggest that to our region, GREAT IDEA!!

I think it would be even better if the students wrote in it as well.

I didn't have the patience to read through all 12 pages of the pearls right now, but thought I'd add a few. If they've been mentioned, I apologize, feel free to flame me.

I tell students to look through their side window on tight left hand turns. Just the action of them turning their head makes a large difference -- it starts to enforce "looking ahead".

In this same vein, I had a student at Lime Rock who was having trouble with the downhill turn. After a few botched lines, as we were turning in, I hollered out, "There's a naked woman on the foot bridge!" [at the braking zone for big bend] He looked up and looked down the track and drove the corner perfectly. Afterwards, he asked, "You really want me to look that far ahead?" :)

Another humorous time, I had a student who would instinctively upshift after completing a pass -- every time! Like it was a reward for triumph! Anyhow, I put my hand on top of the shifter as he was starting a pass, and when it was completed he went to shift and put his hand right on mine. I said, "Trying to hold my hand?" And that cured him for the rest of the day.

Our region has been using student log books for the last few years. Both the Instructor and the Student are expected to put notes in it. The students definitely seem to appreciate it and I am sure the Instructors do to.

The Gold Coast Region has been offering student log books for at least two years now. They are great. I'd say that we are probably negligent in not promoting their use more.

Hey Mr. newly-appointed-Chief-Driving-instructor-and-infamous-Rennlist-troll - that's something we might want to change in our DE program. ( I know you're following this thread!) We should promote the log book at every student meeting and hand them out there.

Great idea Terry! I'll get on it right away! Maybe we should expand this thread to include suggestions from instructors on how to improve the DE program. I would definately consider all input.

Thanks,

I mention the use of log books at every Instructor Training program. Most regions along the east coast use them. We have a template for one on the National PCA web page, but the most effective ones are tailored made by the region for they can contain track maps of the venues used by. the region.
I would like to see this thread expanded to solicit imput on how we can improve DE events.Other than the National Standards, the regions dictate how their events are run. I learn alot by traveling to various regional events and use the "good" ideas in the next session of the National Instructor Training program.
Pete

I would like to say, and I know Mr Tremper (can we call ya Pete?) that you have no control over this, but and I say this in all seriousness.......I don't think instructors should have to pay for track time..period. We joked earlier about paying instructors (individual basis or otherwise), which I know will probably never happen. But for the size turn outs some regions get, why not come up with a system that allows instructors to run without paying, a system that also makes sure they actually are instructing the entire time (which I hear has been an issue in the past). If I come of my own free will and spend my money (hotels food gas etc) to help someone else learn how to drive.......explain why I then have to pay for track time? Am I not giving enough already? Carolinas Region used to make it free, now unless you take 2 students for the entire w/e, you pay !!!! WFT? comes to mind. I mean really, is there that little trust in the system that instructors can't get thrown a bone? Its nothing personal against anyone, I've enjoyed the groups I've instructed for......just seems a little wrong. I would like to see the logbook idea become manditory, I think thats a must in this day and age.

:soapbox: Sorry, I'll step down now.

Pay?

You have to pay?

ouch........

In our region instructors drive for free or a very nominal entry fee (usually $25).

Must be too many instructors in your region.

Yes pay......$only $100 typically, but its the point of having to pay at all that rubs me. And yes Mitch, WAY to many in the region I instruct for. Thats my point about this all. Just about anyone with a great personallity and even a hint of driving knowledge is becoming an instructor. My question is: since PCA doesn't monitor what is being taught, who's watching the instructors? I've been behind many a "train" in green group, which tells me that A) the instructors not paying enough attention. B) neither is the student, or C) they just don't give a sh*t that there's 15 cars behind them and that the flag being waived is at them.

I applaud someone like Tom (here) who genuinely wants to learn, asks questions and goes to mulitple classes. And with all due respect I say, but that does not bring about experience, just basic knowledge. Like I said previously I had a guy once who had potential to be a great driver. He attended 9 track w/e outside of PCA alone (not counting PCA DE's at this one same track), but because he wasn't tutored long enough by an in the car instructor,or hadn't raced, his technicque sucked! He learned amazingly fast and hopefully took away with him what I taught him. But I'd be willing to bet he could have passed instructor school just because he had a great personallity, common sense and all around good disposition. What he lacked was QUALITY seat time, and thats what it takes (and IMO is worth paying for or not having to pay for as an instructor) to be a good instructor.
I hope my words don't offend anyone,Tom especially you, my gripes are about the system, not the people. :)

Chris, you are obviously a great guy!!! In our regions the instructors do essentially drive for free.
Also no one is "invited" to the instructor weekend unless they have driven at the solo level for a least a year. Then they are usually invited to "monitor" the first instructor weekend and the following year then become a "candidate". After these people take the class, from what I have seen there still is less than a 50% promotion rate. (yes even those with good personalities did not pass)
I have to admit I was surprised to see how many were not graduated.

In fact we were told up front at one of the schools I attended that "we usually dont promote you the first time" so the guys in my region are serious hard core instructors!!!
My only answer for you Chris is to move to Florida!!


As for log books I think they should be mandatory just like in racing.

And I think that instructors from around the country (obviously from this thread) need to do as Pete has asked and compare notes and make more uniform goals and standards so that "National Certification" really means just that.

I feel honored to become part of the instructor pool but am certainly at the bottom of the barrel compared to you guys on this thread, but....I will aggressively strive to improve myself, my skills, my knowledge and always do the best that I can. I will also recognize my limitations and if I feel I dont have anything to offer a particular student I will switch off.

Do people on this forum think it is better for "rookie" instructors to have new or green students (cause they dont know that much) or is it in fact more dangerous, or doesnt it matter?
In the case of an advanced (blue) student will the rookie instructor be able to help that level or should it be reserved for more senior instructors.

I know I keep saying it but I really want to thank everyone on this forum for putting together one of the best car and driver threads I have ever seen!!!! (round of applause!!) :bowdown:

Well thats surely a different experience than I understand or have witnessed in this area. I tried moving to Fla one time, wife hates it there though. Hotter and more humid than here, and even less chances for mountains :D (we moved here from Cali 15 years ago).

Your rookie question is an interesting one. On the one hand, you wouldn't want to start off a newbie by telling (or not telling) him/her the wrong thing or nothing at all (task specific). On the other hand, how do you tell someone with more experience than you how to drive a better line, take a deeper brake point, etc......?
Whats the lesser of two evils? I would think the best route would be go with a complete newbie (although that may not be something a registrar could guarantee). In the mean time, attempt to get more instruction from whomever you look up to as a senior instructor, mentor, friend. By doing that you learn, you'll teach, but more importantly you'll understand (hopefully) the how/when/why and where's of it and pass it on.

"Don't ask, don't tell." I tell my student what I think, but not in a disrespectful way. But, I've never asked my students to evaluate me. But for all the years I've been doing this, I did get one negative report card (that I know of) from "management."
That is because, he violated one of my instructions, I told him, "do not go out with any other instructor over this w/e." He didn't listen and he went out with 2 other instructors without my knowledge (besides me). They, unfortunately, created a undeciplined driver and because we out of time for the w/e, I wasn't able to fix the problems.
He reported me!
I didn't lose any sleep!

This brings up one of my pet peeves with PCA DE's in Florida, no instruction for solo drivers. I pretty much stopped learning once I went solo. Improvement in solo is pretty much trial and error. It would be nice if there was a pool of readily available (hopefully senior level) instructors available for solo drivers. Perhaps we could have 2 or 3 dedicated instructors and a sign up sheet at the drivers meeting where solo drivers could schedule an instructor for a run session.

You should get them to do something. For the last 5 or 6 years we have run a White group blitz (our 1st solo group)where all of the instructors jump into a car at their 1st session after lunch. It's an eye opener for both!

We also ran an informal training classroom for them during on lunch session. 3 years ago we took a more indepth focus on this and now I run an official White group instruction program, with 2 mandatory classroom sessions per event, the White blitz, and resources for white drivers to ask questions, get instruction etc. It has been very well received, by evidence of the classroom being filled with white group and occasionally black and red group drivers.

Huh. Here we have an advanced instructor corps who work specifically with folks in the upper run groups who are solo.

You have a valid point. There are some considerations though. It is much more dangerous to instruct a driver in the solo group because they're more likely to be driving at their limit. Also, there are some personality issues when you are instructing a driver who may think they are better than the instructor. If a solo driver asked to be assigned an instructor for a session, there would be no problem with that because the premise for education is already there and the student is willing to learn. I believe that advanced driving techniques are better taught by professional coaches. Let's face it, some of the instructors are not really qualified to teach advanced techniques. The goal of the DE instructor should be to give a newbe the skills to be safe on a race track with a firm understanding of the driving line along with some basics about other techniques like braking and car control. More advanced techniques should be left to coaches (some instructors qualify for this distinction).

good idea!

One Idea I've had was to put an 'X' (or Rookie stripe), on new solo drivers for the first year, or say 6 events, so the instructors can monitor new solo students. (assuming, the new solo drivers are higher risk). with a possibility of a check out ride to remove the 'X' at the end of the term....

running a senior instructor in solo group, might be a good idea too. (monitoring/observing)

Do you think 1 instructor could handle multiple student, with chalkboard talks, and 'some' right seat time. (non dedicated, 1 to many )

-would you be willing to pay an additional fee for this type of training?

If they are at a point where they feel that there is nothing left to learn, in my book that is a problem driver. Usually a ride with the one of the top drivers is enough to show them how far they still have to go.

Agreed, and probably most Instructors should only be instructing beginning students. But most clubs also have a small contingent of experienced Instructor/Racers who can impart additional training to more advanced students.

Techno99: Your concerns are valid. I believe the BMWCCA requires an instructor for all students. At the upcoming Road Atlanta DE for example, senior instructors will ride with all solo drivers for the first session of BOTH Saturday and Sunday, at a minimum. While I suspect this has alot to do with the demanding nature of RA and large amount of Armco, I continue to believe its a great idea which others could benefit from. I've always picked up a useful tip from these seasoned veterans (I know I know I need all the help I can get) that first run session. It also provides a valuable resource person for additional questions, problems and often a hellacious hot lap in the passenger seat.

Jack

I've instructed few times solo drivers and we've done it either just me riding with them in Solo group or once/twice so that the Solo driver requested to be bumped down to Blkue group and I instructed him there (my "regular" student didn't show up that day so I was able to do that.

My point is, if an instructor has a green student, and he is willing (to have two students and instruct the solo guy), it could be organized so that he instructs the solo driver in blue group. This could be only for one session or for the whole day.

Yes, I would pay for a truly excellent instructor. I have routinely talked better drivers into taking me along, or riding with me. It really helps. I've been lucky enough to have had two national level racers work with me. I wish there was a list of willing people so I wouldn't have to search as hard each time,(though maybe the ones I talked in to helping me wouldn't have volunteered for a line of people wanting to work with them). (In addition to the two mentioned above), We had Randy Pobst work with us last year, but each person only got one session as "evryone" wanted him to go out in their car. It was for a fee.

The reason why it is harder to progress after you are soloed is that you have to become more disciplined.

In the lower run groups, the instructor sets your agenda, and you learn what they think you should learn for the entire weekend. This is obviously easier for the student.

Once you are soloed, you typically get to take instructors with you for only a ride or two over the entire weekend. This usually is not enough time for you to learn everything the instructor has to offer, or for the instructor to get a full picture of your skills/talents/bad habits.

I have had the best experiences when I have sought out people to help me with specific issues. So, if I want help with braking or with a specific corner, I can ask around about who is good at that issue or corner(s), tell them what I want to learn, ask them to help me, and then have them ride with me OR, which I am beginning to think is just as helpful at this level, ride with them in their car.

If you are undisciplined, it is much, much harder to learn as an intermediate/advanced driver.

Thanks Todd, that is an excellent topic for one of my classroom talks. :thumbup:

Over the several years I was "solo" there was not one event where I did not seek out a more skilled and experienced driver to go out with me. I always left the track with more knowledge then when I got there.
It at some point becomes a personal issue. There are those that continually strive for excellence and those that are happy just getting around the track without crashing into anything.
I would say that all those on this thread are the former.

Larry, Could you also talk about the importance of where the car has mirrors and how they are to be used while on track? :D That one seems to either be overlooked or forgotten by new drivers. Finish off by making sure they understand how,when and where to give a point by?

Tom, as much track time as you must have by now, do you talk to yourself while going around the track? The best thing you can do (IMO) is instruct yourself on the techniques you've been taught. You'll find it really hammers home what you've learned, it keeps it fresh in your mind and it forces you to concentrate which may bring up question you can ask someone senior while at the track. Each session should be like that and in no time you're a really good driver. Critique yourself, if you screw up.....say it out loud, you'll be amazed how much smoother you'll get. I do it all the time when sessions are bare and there's no traffic......really keeps me "right". I instruct myself as if I was instructing a student (advanced of course :D)

Chris, that is a really good point and I do it on and off the track after a session. Also ask my student to "talk" me around the track so I can hear what they are thinking. Your right it really creates the neural pathways.

Hey;

When my students are green, I disuade them from talking, if they happen to be chatty or try talking themselves around the track. Likely as not they don't know how to drive that well yet, let alone instruct themselves. I am there to do the instructing, and they are there to listen to ME at this point.

When they get to where the pieces are falling into place and they have some consistency, I then encourage them to talk themsleves around for a lap or so. If they are not natural chatters, or are otherwise reluctant to speak, I then actively question them on how they think they did on that last corner. Their responses are a good gauge of their knowledge, awareness, and thought process. When they come back with exactly the right critique, you know you are getting somewhere.

Hey;

Most of the established regions (the proactive ones) have been hitting the intermediate groups hard for the last few years, with good results.

I often will take run in an intermediate group for fun (I don't get to pass many in Red!), and to gauge what is going on there. If I run into problems I report these to the CI for his benefit. I do this mostly on my own with no prompting. I even on occasion go up to some drivers after the session (particularly those with much faster cars than mine) and ask them if they noticed that stranger in the 944NA pasted on their back bumper? A surprising number have been aware of the obvious differential in ability this situation has presented them, and quite interested in "solving" that little problem!

Actually, we did have a classroom last season on track awareness. It included being aware of who was coming up from behind, not just who was plastered to ones bumper. The object was to be able to determine someones closing rate and let them by without disturbing your own momentum. It hit home when I explained that in racing, it is every bit as important to be able to let a faster car by, as it is to be able to pass a slower car without losing pace.

And I sum it up by asking them who is going to be the clown that holds everyone up and doesn't use their mirrors? And I let them know that we will discuss it further tomorrow! You should see all of the passing signals then! :roflmao:

+1

Even between seriously good drivers (I'm talking real pros, F1 etc.), there are differences how they run and while other might be better for example in braking, others can be better in turning in, or mid corner, or one is faster in turn 1 while other is faster in turn 5.

That principle is also how I improve myself.

When trying to improve lap times &/or get better in general, it's better to do it one by one. Whether it's corner by corner &/or segment by segment (braking, turn in, track out) you learn better when doing it one item at time.

If the PCA is a national certification then why are there so many different stories and experiences after the instructor school? Seems somewhat confusing to me? (but I am easily confused!)

Chris: Not to worry, Tom's been talking to himself for years! : )

(So Tom, are you joining us on our March road trip??

Jack

Remember that the PCA national program is only part of the process. There is the mentor part which varies from instructor to instructor. I have found that in order to progress as a driver, much must be done on your own. Once you are signed off, you should seek out the better drivers and ask them to ride with you and give critiques. You should ask to ride with good drivers and really pay attention to their techniques. You should read alot. You should practice inner driver (daydreaming about driving). You should practice certain techniques on the street all the time (obeying all traffic laws and always be safe).

Tom, any time you want to go out for a ride, let me know. You have the right attitude and will go far. You are headed for the CTI job!!!

Absolute fact, Larry.

And, as an alternative, I will ride with them and look for one thing to work on (there is ALWAYS at LEAST one glaring problem with their droving). They ALWAYS notice the difference immediately, and the smart ones then get humility & realize how far they are from being a really good drover. And then they REALLY start to learn!!!

Add me to your list! ;) I sure as hell ain't Randy Pobst, but....I sure as hell ain't bad, either.

Abso-frikking-LUTELY. It's funny: I covered the exact same topic in the last advanced classroom that I did. Great warped minds think alike!

Todd & Tom, also excellent points.

Yeah add me too. Have skills, will travel :D

After rereading the 15 pages of posts I got to thinking (I know bad idea). Are we doing too good a job?? One example of what worries me: What effect does the absolute. 100%, unyieding, black and white, no exceptions approach to straight line braking taught to our green-blue students have on their subsequent driving? Will they always or only sometimes be lacking at the higher levels of driving, slow but "safe", if you will. Not to say that we shouldn't teach straight line braking and not to denigrate safe driving but ........

Jack

Keeping things "simple" with new or new-ish students works best for me! Often there are far too many elements to cover "all at once" (even over a short period of time). So, if you buy into this philosophy (and you may not), then braking and shifting should be simple--in a straight line.
There are many "advanced moves" which can be taught based on your level of comfort along with the student's abilities. I see no advantage to rushing through the training process.
We should teach "the party line" with an eye towards tweeking the process.
Just my .02.

Understand and agree. But what are the consequences when a "good" student internalizes a "safe" technique that is, in actuality, an impediment to higher speed driving?

Jack

Jack;

You are speaking as someone who has gone through H@#$ to unlearn these safe methods when your more advanced pace called for it. Indeed, I imagine we all struggle with that to some degree. I still am!

Perhaps what is helpful is to mention to an advancing student that at some point they may want to study and understand the subject of trail braking (for example) so they might start to wrap their heads around it before they actually try it. Becoming comfortable with it in the mind is a good start. Then perhaps seeing their instructor demonstrate would further cement it in their heads.

I myself came upon TB technique quite by accident, as it were, without ever really thinking about it. I learned to LFB very early on. Since it worked so well for auto-x, I figured it would offer the same benefit on the big track. I guess this allowed me to feel more comfortable going into turns at higher speed because I had my left foot ready to mitigate the high-speed-entry-floats, and other little slips and wiggles instantly during corner entry. I just naturally felt safer going in a little hot with this safety net in place.

Point being I was already comfortable. If you see a student with potential, no sense not planting the seed. It will likely then sprout when it needs to.

John: Thanks. Really understand and really agree, but all of what you say (and I agree with it all) does go against the party line and sorta kinda goes back to Tom's question of how to instruct PCA students in the first place. In some selct circumstances and certain students, are we doing them a disservice. Again I understand that we are concerned with safety and NOT racing BUT .....

Jack

Jack, as a new instructor in your region I cant answer your question but for me teaching "new" students the "party line" and safe driving techniques is what teaching new students is all about, correct me if I'm wrong?

Well...

To some extent, I don't worry about what PCA says. I do follow the basic tenants, as they are more or less common sense. Beyond that, I think I am capable of managing what my student needs, and what I will teach them. It is, after all, our necks.

If my student has nothing more to learn about cornering at the level they are at currently, then we will work on more advanced things like TB. You are not likely to be in this place with a novice. If you are working with an intermediate, then I feel it is encumbent upon you to teach them what they need to know to be a competant intermediate. TB is one of those things. That is not contrary to PCA "doctrine" in my opinion.

To some extent, NOT teaching them TB may be akin to not teaching them something like off-line driving, or how to look "through" the car in front of them. If they have a trick in their bag, it might save them. That is our job to some extent, eh?

Knowledge is power.

Veloce Raptor, where the heck is Carjackistan? If it is near Road America, you're on! Also, "993 in NC", you may be to far away for a reasonable price, but I like the offer! I hope to be at Road America a number of times this summer. Right now we have sleet, snow and freezing rain. Am I jealous of you all who have warm weather and are already at the track.

I think I'm essentially in agreement with "RedlineMan". I find that straight line braking, etc. is essential for my own health with many students. I have no desire to spin or crash with them. They're having a hard enought time figuring out where to be on the track. But some definately can negotiate advanced braking , shifting and turning. Leaving them with straight breaking only makes no sense. It doesn't have to have anything to do with racing, just better form with an advancing student.

Austin, Texas. Due south of RA... ;)

Who said that you are not to teach TB? I canonly speak of Potomac PCA but there is freedom to teach methods when you feel the student is ready. I teach it when my student shows me he/she is ready by ether by showing good standard car control or by trail braking in the right places and at the right times often without understanding that they did. There are also some corners that beg for it and they are good for first time instruction on TB. End of the back straight at VIR for example. It just feels so "right" to TB there that it is a good place to expose the methods as the student gets good feel and feedback with even rough beginer inputs. There is enough room that the student can hold off brakeing in the straight and pass most or in my slowass case all the braking markers and then TB in the turn but let off and staighten out and brake hard on the uphill section if they mess up.

I am a wee tad far from RA, but make me an offer I can't refuse.....who knows what might happen :D

Typically I am open for anywhere from VIR to Road ATL.

Mitch you are right and I still look for the "education ride" every event. I try to come away from each event a little better every time!
With mentors like you and Bob you cant help be continue to improve.

I dont think enough has been said on this thread about the importance of establishing and continuing ongoing relationships with local AWESOME mentors like you guys!! Priceless!!!

Tom, what you might find is that, as you begin to gel with the experienced instructors, you will begin to ride with each other, and you will learn from each other. Yes, they will learn things from you. I have ridden with many, many more experienced instructors, many of whom have been racing for longer than I have been going to the track. And I have learned (and still learn) a ton from them.

But as they have gotten to know me, they have flattered me incredibly by asking me to ride with them & offer any tips/observations/suggestions on what I saw or felt in their right seat. And yes, I have been able to give real concrete feedback that has also improved them, in one case a few months ago quite dramatically.

So it seems you are on the right path...just don't be susprised when other instructors look to you for advice, too!

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind and maybe someday....................

I'm sure somewhere in these pages is the following tip but I'm at work and can't read them all however the best driving tip I've ever had was to 'look where you want to go, not where you are'. By looking ahead through the corner even past the apex once you've established your line, makes such a difference to how you or your student drives. It even seems to take a bit of fear out of the driver of loosing traction and you seem to drive faster but more smoothly through said corner. This is probably old news but my 0.02cents. :p

Funny someone mentioned this... I do this also, and it DOES help. I also find that my own run session after having instructed while being constantly talking to a really green student is vastly more focused, as I just mentally went through it all for 20 mins.

On another note, I didn't see it mentioned really in this dialog...

When do you feel it is ok or necessary to drive a student's car? I haven't done this, but others I've seen, or have even instructed me in the past have wanted to drive the student's car at speed.

If you do this, do you feel it helps you instruct someone better since you have a grasp on how the car is set up and its capabilities?? How and why? Does it just give you peace of mind having a clue what to expect their car to handle??

There are bad instructors! I hope I am now at least a medicore one now.

When I was student in PCA DE, I had a instructor who would wave her hands in front of my face and shout, obstructing my vision and upsetting my concentration. It's important to be assertive as an instructor, but don't be angry and foolish. I was always a good student, and still am - listen closely to what better drivers tell me, and don't drive over my head (well, most of the time...).

Sometimes I think it comes down to a good match between instructor and student. Since I tend to be quiet and studious, I noticed I tend to instruct better with more introverted students, and almost nothing scares me anymore. I tend not to do so well with testosterone-fueled, aggressive novices with limited ability to self-regulate.

I've always used the cliche "car goes where your eyes go" but I've starting asking students "where are your eyes looking?" This tends to promote more awareness for the student.

Proof that your hands go where your eyes are looking! :D

WOW! Great thread! Too bad I just found it now, after going through PCA instructor school myself!

My "two cents" (forgive me if they've been said before):

1. Take a few minutes to get to know your student before even getting in the car. Ask them what they do for a living (tells you a lot about the person), ask them about their car (tells you how much they know about their car) I like to ask them about their tire pressures, if they look at me with a blank stare, I know I'm in for a looong day! And ask them where do they wanna go with this, are they just looking to learn a bit about the driving limits of their vehicle, or are they interested in this as a career?

2. Tell them to relax. We are here to have FUN!

3. Smoothness is key. Speed is almost a byproduct of being smooth.

4. Always ask for permission if you are going to touch their hands and/or steering wheel. This is also a good time to go through your hand signals and to review the meaning of the flags.

5. At the end of the session take some time to "debrief". Be extra positive on your comments. When they screw up (and they will!) tell them "You need to work on...", or "You can do ... a bit differently".

6. Ask them "What could I have done better as your instructor?" You'll be surprised at the answers.

7. When you sign them off tell them to be patient. Improvement usually is very fast in the beginning, only to plateau after a while, and then you improve very slowly. Some very fine drivers have spent years only to shave one tenth of a second off their best time. This is normal. Your students should know this.

8. I usually tell them that it's been a privilege to instruct them and that I expect to see them in the future.

Thanks for the wealth of knowledge here guys! Stay safe!

Yes this is an excellent thread with a ton of great info. I have it saved in my favorties and review it a lot of the times before I head off to the track for a DE.

993NC mentions about talking to youself and instructing yourself as you go around the track. Funny thing is I do exactly that! It helps me drive better but also helps me instruct better so that I do not take the simple parts of the track for granted.

Also for me this instructing yourself comes from being a musician where on certain musical parts I will have to count to myself and other parts of the music I do not count but just play...however just like driving a car at speed on the track I always have to think ahead in the music so I know what is coming at me...always stay ahead of the music...just like driving a car.

I am always in the future while driving and never in the moment.

Even in a stock Honda Civic the student won’t be able to under stand you at 100 MPH with a helmet on and both windows down; a communicator is absolutely necessary. The louder the pipes the more you need the communicator.

When working with novices the phrasing of your instruction can be important. Don’t say, “Brake at the 3 marker” because about 0.5 seconds after you say ‘Brake’ that’s what you might get. It’s better to say “At the 3 marker, brake”, “At the cone, turn in”.

In addition, make sure your student puts his/her microphone INSIDE the helmet, and not just underneath his/her chin. This prevents wind roar from drowning out all conversation. And if the student has an open face helmet, expect communication to be difficult at higher speeds for this reason. At least, with a Chatterbox....







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Amen to that ^^^^ I couldn't hear my guy at high speed this w/e at Road Atl, finally realized the mic was under his chin :grr: 'Course it was a full face helmet, not sure he could have gotten it in front of his mouth.

Always have a spare chatterbox fully charged and a spare student communicator. I also use the "stereo" headphones mounted in my helmet for the chatterbox/much easier to use than a student commicator.

Holy thread revival!
And ask your student to remove the helmet and let the student com unit fall out on its own. Many a unit has been broken when the student pulls it out by the mike boom.

again thanks to all that have made this thread an invaluable read. it to me is now a good reference for all instructor candidates.

you should all be commended for your wisdom and insight, we all thank you.

grasshopper

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...rfestTT005.jpg

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It is actually very easy to do with a flexible mic boom.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

As a student, I got so frustrated with bad headsets that I took to carrying my own. As an instructor, I carry spare headsets and expect that people will pull on the cord. Its my responsibility to make sure that communications work.

If there is a wire to pull on, people will pull on it. No amount of telling will change that.

The chatterbox headsets are fragile. But I use an old wiring trick to protect the connection with a strain relief loop. I tape a loop back against the cord with racers tape. Any strain is taken by the tape and the loop - no strain on the connection. The loop is very compact and you can pull on the cord to your hearts content without harm.

Which reminds me: one other thing I do in selective cases (especially noisy and/or extremel fast cars likely to have lots of wind noise is to arrange with the student while we are still on the grid a few hand signals I will use if voice comms prove futile. Gas, release gas, brake, release brake, maybe one or two others.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

grasshopper pm sent

Now that is an awesome idea...excellent comunication! Thanks for this!:bowdown:

+1 SOP

hand signals are great as COMM can go down. I use my fist in drivers field of view pumping it up and down for BRAKE. More pumps more brake, conversly I tap the dash for gas, more taps more gas and hopefully I get to quote the Scotsman and comand "FULL POWER".

Hmm......then my guy was lazy, 'cuz my mics are flexible!

Could be. I have also learned that students rarely have any idea where the boom goes, since they can't see down there. So I routinely will look and suggest they adjustment in order to get it closer to their pie holes. :D







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Yeah, normally I would have. But my guy, although nice enough, was a delicate balance of what seemed to be a jaded passive/aggressive personality. This was one used to being the supreme commander and not the subservient, although he did seem to respond to my instruction fairly well. I figured the mic was an "issue" not worth the possible tension. He heard me just fine and in the end.............thats all that counts :D His talking to me was through his driving :thumbup: which improved greatly. I hope 007DT will chime in too, he took my guy for the late Sunday aftrenoon session since I had a long trip home. Love to hear how it went......Dave you around?

Carroll, cant get through to your email address? do you have another

my email is tkerrmd@aol.com

tom

im sure Dave will chime in with his thoughts soon, i believe the guy yall had was driving a corvette

08 Z06 with a little extra punch putting out close to 600 HP :banghead: Wasn't real happy about it when I found out, so I told him right off......"we do it my way" to let him know we wouldn't be setting any speed records this w/e. Luckily he had a reasonable attitude about it all and really understood the danger potential, so it all worked out nicely. He seemed to have a good time, learned a lot and got better each session......what more could I ask?

Good old Dave!







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

I will sometimes do that at the end of the day or whenever I feel myself start to get a little "lazy".

I've also asked students to talk through a lap telling me what they are doing and when, where their sight queues are etc. It seems like it helps them to think about what they are doing instead of just reacting. I had one student who was consistantly early on one corner. No matter what I said, I couldn't get him to hold it out longer. Once he was talking his way through a lap, we got to the corner and he kept repeating wait-wait-wait and he nailed it. Never had a problem after that.

great tips on the chatter boxes... Does anyone have a decent online source for them?

I asked in my thread revival post, but I don't think anyone saw it... so here's my question for anyone who has input:

On another note, I didn't see it mentioned really in this dialog...

When do you feel it is ok or necessary to drive a student's car? I haven't done this, but others I've seen, or have even instructed me in the past have wanted to drive the student's car at speed.

If you do this, do you feel it helps you instruct someone better since you have a grasp on how the car is set up and its capabilities?? How and why? Does it just give you peace of mind having a clue what to expect their car to handle??

I'll take a stab at this one...............






NEVER!

Its your job to begin to teach the student how to drive or to add to what they've already learned with previous instructors. Either way, if you are a capable driver and understand handling characteristics, you shouldn't need to drive their car :nono:

I had a 600 HP vette student this w/e, a car I've not had experience in before. But I knew it was a fast, yet heavy beast with amazing brakes and crappy street tires. I could feel it "float" over 140 mph because of said tires, and had a tendency to have front end push.............all this without driving it.

In this litigious society, you should be running from potential liabilities not looking to get into them by taking on the risk of piloting someone else's ride, and on a race track no less......

Just my .002

I tend to agree..the exception is with the BMW club with which I instruct....we take students in the beginning group for three parade laps with instructors driving just to show them the track and the line. I find it useful. I never drive a student's car in a regular session.

With a 0.0 student I will offer to drive a lap or 3 at about 2 tenths pointing out the corner workers, noting sight line points I want to use and showing a clean line. It helps to set a starting foundation with the new student not in full "OMG I am on a race track!" mode. Lap one is 100% safety, corner workers, pit in and out methods and the like. #2 is comunication as I talk the corners using the conventional words instructing myself around the track. #3 is talking the line and corners a bit and having the student look at my hands and feet a little as I drive some of the corners.

I never drive a students car at speed or if they have any track experence. 0.0 Green only. Not looking to impress jut cut through the Green tunnel vision overload a bit.

The region I have instructed for a lot "requires" that instructors drive the first two laps of the first run of each event. Their reasoning is that it gives the instructor a chance to make certain that they are comfortable with the preparedness of the car in which they will be riding, and an opportunity to show the student the track and explain the meaning of the terminology they will be using. If a student prefers that I don't drive the car, I don't. If the student has been on the particular track recently, I don't. The laps are taken at about 5/10s.

I'm neither suggesting the above, nor interested in defending it. Just reporting one large regions approach to their 13 or so events each year (9 to 10 differing tracks)

Our region also requires that we drive the green students' car for the first two laps of their first run group. With that, I always ask permission to do so. These are glorified parade laps, showing student the track for the first time. Even though I've been asked by students to drive their cars at speed, I always refuse as I don't want to potentially buy that car. However, the GT3RS was a tempting offer.

This (droving the green student's car for 3 laps helmetles at parade lap speeds to show the track) is very common IMO. Only once in a blue moon does a student object to this.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

One reason that BMWCCA wants instructors to drive the students car is so you know how the students car handles, two laps max at 0.8. This is the time to point out flag stations and passing zones without the student having to worry about steering and shifting. Driving a novice students car will also help reduce their anxiety when they get behind the wheel because half of them think they might die and the other half want to show you their the next Michael Schumacher.
Driving the students car also sets the expectation for the learning environment. At 0.8 you'll be going as fast as the novice may be comfortable with and the intermediate will have a benchmark to work toward.

Our region has a similar approach, the instructor drives 1-3 laps, never at more than 5-6/10, then we switch seats until the student is "cleared". I think it's a good idea to ask them for their approval, though.
Our students are always satisfied with this approach. We've never had an "incident" with an instructor driving the student's car.

Guys,
Superb, timely and no doubt timeless thread!
Many thanks, this is a great aid.
Ken

:soapbox:

Don't instruct any car You cant wear Your Hans in....:banghead:


Yeah I know....whatever...

..........Or any one you wouldn't want to have to pay to replace :thumbup: Driving students cars........sorry, thats just asking for disaster in my book. Even slow, something could go wrong, then what?

Chris this is one of the reasons we like pushing Lockton-Affinity insurance on our participants -- the instructor, should they choose to drive the student's car -- would be covered -- even if they have a second driver that is not the instructor. Whew...

Also, I'm not an instructor, but I live with one. And his quote, which I get to hear regularly, I didn't see among the quick scan of this wonderful thread would be, "Don't save it."

Driving student car for 2-3 parade laps is a good idea.... before you ask them to push the car/drover limits.

I found a students car ('89 930) had stuck left front caliper, on the parade lap, once. it would have sucked to find that out later in a brake zone at speed... (pulled badly to rt)...

-student drove 90+ miles to event, and had no clue of the problem... (said student was intermediate (blue) too)

Great Thread.....I've read it and made some notes for review later this year.

I still remember my first instructor who was a great guy. He signed me off and then just as I was starting the car stuck his head back in the window and said "Remember to take you hands off the steering wheel and pull your feet up off the pedals just before you hit the wall".

The effect of that statement was that I went out at a 70-80% pace.

I still laugh about that, but he knew how to reign you in.

Ken

The "driving the student's car" theme has been beaten to death over many threads, but when I HAVE TO drive a green students car for those 2 laps because they have never seen/been on the track, I use that opportunity to drive AT THE PACE that I want them to start at. It gives them quick familiarity with the track, and also a pattern of what I want. Seems to work pretty much all of the time.

+1

Not hard to do ether. Instructor 2.0 tenths = 0.0 Green 9.5 tenths.

I have turned down some nice cars too.

:thumbsup: Best advice when one has to drive a students car !!!

:cheers:

Awwww shucks , just call yourself a Professional and don't use telemetry .
The student will never know :biggulp:

All good advice I will be using this year as a new instructor myself. I think we should also not forget encouragement and to have fun. My worst experience was my first time on a track. My instructor at the time was a hot head who thought screaming a point across made it more clear. It's those types of experiences that drive students away from the sport. JMO..

Absolutly...I have seen in my short instructing time too may instructors taking a student out in the 1st laps either in the students car or the instructors car and doing hot laps right at the start. There is no way a student can learn the track or know the pace they need to be at.

The times I have done this, didnt really help much. (Not to say that its not a good idea, as it does makes sense) I think there is just so much of driving that has to be done by the driver to stick. I think the lead follow is good, but if you dont have radios and the following car's driver doesnt understand hand signals, its kind of a mess too. ( Especially when there is more than one car, and the guy behind starts doing the wrong thing, fades back and everyone behind him learns from the lowest commone denominator).

I had a lot of good luck just having folks drive the car, brake straight and turn in on my point. Hand signals like both hands pushing for brakes, a point for the release of brakes and the turn in.

Maybe a good way would be a hybrid. Let the student out first to discover the track with the instructor's help. THEN, drive the car at that same speed or at a better pace, now he has his first experience to reflect on, a correct way, and can use this to feel more comfortable doing what the instructor is guiding him to do.

Obviously communication is key. yelling , screaming, doesnt work and probably is dangerous and not a lot of fun for anyone. I think KISS. Keeping it really simple. Focusing on just a few important things with easy to understand hand signals or verbage is best. This even works for the guys with more advanced skills. "Brake here, release, turn in , track out, accelerate", signals (verbal and hand signals) can do much of what is needed to get someone up to speed quickly and safely .

Then simply don't do it! If you are not comfortable driving another's car, don't.

I don't, never have, no intentions to.........and I've turned down a CGT :banghead:
And to be clear, its not about "comfort" per say, but having a rather high liability daily life, I simply choose not to muck it up even more with what seems to me to be a useless opportunity for risk.

We always say here that "seat time" is the best receipt for getting better on track, now its ok to jump in their car and drive it for them for a couple of laps? Is it that difficult to instruct a newbie around a new track that they couldn't learn more by a couple of self propelled pace laps under careful instruction?

No offense, this is just my opinion, I know we all have our own ways. This one just seems fruitless given the potential hazards.

Talk to Viper Bob...
 

over at Vortex...he has instructed mucho!!!:rockon:

Read the complete Speed Secrets series, about 8 books. Go to www.porscheownersclub.org There is a drivers manual on there.

The 2 things I remember:
1. The car goes where you bee looking,
2. Look past the end of your hood....
3. Don't do what he did...

2, 3, who is counting....