KRA993tt

Looking at the 2007 NASA rules it looks like right side restraint is required July 1, 2007. How are others dealing with this? With a seat or restraint net or both?

Are these seats considered Bolstered?






This set up looks great unless you want to see out your right side window. Not sure how attach points are secured either.





Any thoughts or recomendations?

RedlineMan

Hey;

This is a bit of a semantical excercise. "Bolstered" is what most any race seat is, to my way of thinking. From what you are describing, NASA appears to be heading more toward "containment" of the driver, which is strongly evidenced in the NASCAR cockpit you picture last. That is one notch below the state of the containment art.

When speaking of containment, I draw a distinction between what I refer to as the generic "wing" seat - where the shoulder bolsters are at roughly a 45* angle to the seat back - and "containment" seats, where not only the shoulder bolsters, but the added head "fences", are perpendicular to the seat back.

The Sparco seat shown is far better in my opinion. It has something closer to shoulder "fences." The Recaro seat pictured has never made any sense to me at all. I don't think it is a good idea to try and restrict head movement - as they do here with minimalist fences - but only have miniscule wings for the shoulders. Wings provide decent support for the driver until there is a collision, at which point they do virtually nothing to keep the driver in place.

You do not want to try an make up for a marginal seat by simply throwing in a side net, but certainly any seat can be augmented to a high degree by a properly installed right side net. The level to which you net that side is dependant on the seat you have, wing seats requiring a bit more substantial net than a containment seat. All three points in the one pictured are attached to the cage, the rears being fixed, and the fronts being a generic latch & link attachment. If you get everything positioned properly, you really don't even see it, believe it or not.



My feeling is that containment is the way to go for racing. You must balance the increased safety with the decreased utility of having all that extra stuff in your way. You also have to make sure you actually fit the parameters of any seat you look at. This is a point in favor of the alloy seats that can be custom made to your specs.

KRA993tt

As usual great insight John thank you.

I feel the same way regarding the Recaro regarding containment but thought it looked comfortable with a Hans device. I did see some Kirkey seats also but wasn't sure how difficult they would be to stuff in a Porsche.

JerryW

I have the Kirkey Roadrace seats in the 964 and 944's. They fit with no problem but will need a seatback brace for NASA. Kirkey also make add on peices to turn the road race seat into contaiment seats as you need.

KRA993tt

Sounds good. What type of side rail set up did you use to attach them to the floor.

JerryW

I used stock Porsche manual sliders and the IO-Port Racing side mounts. If it hadn't been for the difference in height between my son and I we wouldn't have needed the sliders. The manual sliders have to be drilled for the extra mounting bolt at the rear for late model 944's and 964's. Depending on which seat you get you may need to re-drill the side mounts. (The 15" seat fits directly and the 16" I had to work with.)

(you can have a look at the stuff at www.ioportracing.com. By the way the owner is a NASA Tech Inspector and can answer any of your NASA related questions)

KRA993tt

Thank you for the help. The more I look at the options and structure of these seats the more I like them. I found this beast on the Kirkey site:

JackOlsen

You won't like the full head containment ones so much in a fire. They also restrict head movement (and your ability to see and avoid other cars) more than a Hans or Isaac. The nice thing about side nets is that they have a release buckle, allowing a quicker exit from a burning cockpit.

fatbillybob

Until the nets trap your HNR it ain't so quick. The real problem with full containment is that it is physically harder to wiggle out of the car because your back your hip or something is always hitting the shoulder or head fences. You need a bigger opening in the car door. In fact the laterally open design of the NASCAR bar allows you more exit space. Some people would have trouble getting in and out of a car with full containment and X-bars espectially if there is an A-piller vertical support tube. I use custom full containment and it is tight. It feels great when I am in. I can't see as well and now that Jack knows I can't see if I'm on the track with him maybe I can do a blind intimadation pass??? So is that an advantage? Anyway I had to go to a giant Allview mirror to compensate for not being able to crank my head to see. If I had to do it all over again I would still go full containment. The advantages just seem to outweight the disadvantaged. For anyone doing dual use I think they should stick to traditional seats. I am also not so crazy about plastic seat's idea of full containment. I don't think they are designed very well. Recaro has no significant shoulder fences so you spill from the seat and your head gets trapped as you crash. Sparco circuit has flimsy side hoops that will just whip and end. The Cobra plastic seat isn't much better. The Racetech one is probably the stiffest. It is rated to 40g's. The other seats are FIA and rated to like 20g's so they flex more. I can't remember the G ratings but it is something like I post.

JackOlsen

Yeah, I'm not against the head-restraining bolsters on seats (for full race cars, at least) -- it's just that it's never a simple decision -- there are compromises with almost all types of safety gear.

Nordschleife

Hmmmmm, one of the safety tests I used to enjoy involved demonstrating that one could get out of the passenger door window within a certain time. It went something like -

release seat belt
disconnect comms link
disconnect drink tube
remove steering wheel
relax
clench buttocks
relax
levitate through the window

oh and remember not to get hung up on the gear lever, could damage the the courting tackle

this new level of restraint makes that more difficult.

R+C
PS I love watching guys forget to release the wheel before exiting...... lol

RedlineMan

Keith;

I recently did this install.



Pole Position SPG in a 944T. The standard Sparco slider actually works very well. It has enough length to accomodate drilling the thrid hole for the rear bolt hole, and it is also FIA homologated. I think I will start using them instead of the JAZ tracks I have been using because I have to mod those for length.

However, the standard Recaro side bracket with the double step does not allow the seat to go low enough. I did this.




.125" steel plate welded to the Sparco slider. I also spliced the locking handle together where it was cut to widen the seat base. This was really pretty easy and took very little time once I proto'd the side plate and figured out all the angles. The passenger seat will take no time at all.

It made for a nice clean install.

KRA993tt

Do you think it makes more sense to just have the right side containment instead of the full wrap around? I am wearing a Hans device and the left side has a window net.

John looks great. The only pictures I had seen of Kirkey seats always had a pedestal base. I have had trouble before getting my seat low enough. Now I can see their seat is similar to other mfg. shells. Do you use slide rails for egress or different drivers? I have just bolted other seats to the floor in a fixed position primarily to eliminate the height of the slide rails.

gbaker

These "head surrounds" and nets are required when your head and neck restraint offers no lateral protection. Reference SAE paper #2006-01-3631:



and



If you go that route you will have, as mentioned, reduced visibility, hindered egress and the requirement that the net be positioned such that the top strand is aligned with the CG of the head. Reference SAE paper #2004-01-3513:



and



I agree with John that the containment "wings" at the shoulders are valuable, especially for keeping the belts on, but there is nothing good about all that extra crap above the shoulders.

Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC

924RACR

Thanks for posting that last excerpt, Gregg - I just wish it was a little clearer and more easily read.

Still, no reason IMO to not do both a H+N restraint with good lateral capability AND a right side net. Of course, I DO put my money where my mouth is... (FWIW I run a Kirkey seat, BTW).