Instructors H&N restraint with student 3 point seat belt
12-11-2006, 09:52 PM
#1
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Instructors H&N restraint with student 3 point seat belt
After reading posts on H&N restraints, I was about to spring for a R3 or Hybrid H&N to use when I'm in a student's car with no full harness and only 3 point seat belts. I use a Hans in my car and I KNOW it's saved my neck in the one seriious incident I've had, but it definitely can't be used with a 3 point belt. I call a dealer for the R3 and I'm told it would be better to not wear a restraint, that the R3 will not function properly with a 3 point, and I'm better off just using the stock seat belts and airbags. I assume some students don't have state of the art airbags. What's the answer?
12-11-2006, 10:24 PM
#2
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Seatbelts & airbags.
12-11-2006, 10:53 PM
#3
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How about an old fashioned Hutchens or D-Cel?
Would they be compatible with a 3 point?
This is interesting, as IIRC, there are some folks who purchased an R3 (the Hutchens Hybrid wasn't available at the time) for the purpose of instructing.
Perhaps another option is the Leatt brace.....designed for motorcycle and kart (both non belted) applications
Would they be compatible with a 3 point?
This is interesting, as IIRC, there are some folks who purchased an R3 (the Hutchens Hybrid wasn't available at the time) for the purpose of instructing.
Perhaps another option is the Leatt brace.....designed for motorcycle and kart (both non belted) applications
12-12-2006, 12:00 AM
#5
Race Car
Aren't those tests done with a full harness? I've always assumed that the neck restraint is necessary because 5 and 6 point harnesses secure the torso as well as they do. I've seen video with 3-point belts and it seems that the 'torso fixed, head moving forward' phenomenon is drastically reduced with the movement allowed by stock 3-point belts. (Of course, the trade-off is that you'll move around a lot more with 3-point belts, potentially into all of those fixed steel pieces of a car.)
There are lots of hazards associated with stock street safety gear -- liberal torso travel, airbags only deploy on the first impact -- but I'd assumed basilar skull fracture is less likely in a street car than in one with full harnesses.
But I'm a long way from being any kind of an expert. Maybe Gregg or someone else can shed some light.
There are lots of hazards associated with stock street safety gear -- liberal torso travel, airbags only deploy on the first impact -- but I'd assumed basilar skull fracture is less likely in a street car than in one with full harnesses.
But I'm a long way from being any kind of an expert. Maybe Gregg or someone else can shed some light.
12-12-2006, 01:27 PM
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Jack,
Yes, all modern testing is performed with 6 pt. harnesses. You raise a good point; perhaps the simplest thing to do is rely on the airbags. Sure they only work head on (for the most part) but no one is going to put a full containment seat in the passenger side anyway.
Yes, all modern testing is performed with 6 pt. harnesses. You raise a good point; perhaps the simplest thing to do is rely on the airbags. Sure they only work head on (for the most part) but no one is going to put a full containment seat in the passenger side anyway.
12-12-2006, 01:49 PM
#7
Race Car
any opinions on wearing a torso belt in (addtion to) a 3 point seatbelt with a R3?
thats what I'm doing.... Am I better off not wearing the torso belt in a car with airbags?
thats what I'm doing.... Am I better off not wearing the torso belt in a car with airbags?
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12-12-2006, 03:22 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Jeez I'd never really thought about this before - the 5/6 point harness making the H&N more necessary. Makes total sense, though. Also makes me lean a lot more toward saving up and buying them together instead of separately.
12-12-2006, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mrbillfll
any opinions on wearing a torso belt in (addtion to) a 3 point seatbelt with a R3?
thats what I'm doing.... Am I better off not wearing the torso belt in a car with airbags?
thats what I'm doing.... Am I better off not wearing the torso belt in a car with airbags?
12-12-2006, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chancecasey
Jeez I'd never really thought about this before - the 5/6 point harness making the H&N more necessary. Makes total sense, though. Also makes me lean a lot more toward saving up and buying them together instead of separately.
Anyone wanna see videos?
12-12-2006, 05:59 PM
#11
The R3 works with factory 3 point seat belts. And track instructors can safely use the R3 in students’ cars that only have 3 point seat belts. This comes directly from the Trevor Ashline the designer of the R3.
If you have any question send me an email; I am a dealer for the R3.
David Katz
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tracsafe@comcast.net
If you have any question send me an email; I am a dealer for the R3.
David Katz
TRACSAFE
tracsafe@comcast.net
12-12-2006, 06:14 PM
#13
Race Car
Is there any evidence of increased risk of basilar skull fracture when a driver is using 3-point belts? Has anyone done any testing with them, and have there been any reports of this type of injury even happening when 3-point belts are used?
As I've understood it, the reason there's a need for head-and-neck-restraints in the first place is not because impacts on a race track are unique in any way -- it's because properly-tightened race harnesses severely restrict torso movement without restricting head movement. This leads to the head wanting to leave the body (for lack of a better way of putting it). But if this difference between head and torso travel doesn't exist with 3-point belts, then is there any reason to be selling these devices to drivers who aren't using race harnesses?
My concern here is that drivers with 3-point belts might be creating an unnecessary hazard (increased difficulty exiting a burning car, for instance) with no meaningful net gain in safety.
As I've understood it, the reason there's a need for head-and-neck-restraints in the first place is not because impacts on a race track are unique in any way -- it's because properly-tightened race harnesses severely restrict torso movement without restricting head movement. This leads to the head wanting to leave the body (for lack of a better way of putting it). But if this difference between head and torso travel doesn't exist with 3-point belts, then is there any reason to be selling these devices to drivers who aren't using race harnesses?
My concern here is that drivers with 3-point belts might be creating an unnecessary hazard (increased difficulty exiting a burning car, for instance) with no meaningful net gain in safety.
Last edited by JackOlsen; 12-12-2006 at 06:40 PM.
12-12-2006, 07:11 PM
#14
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Mr Bill asked about using a torso belt -- I am hoping that you meant a lap belt with a 3-point.
Given the rule changes that we expect to see., ie no harnesses with stock seats unless they are equipped with sub-hole and shoulder strap hole. I really see no problem with augmenting the 3-point with a lap belt to keep you from sliding all over the freshly amoralled seats. I also read somewhere that this would not be allowed; although, I can find no test data to indicate that this is less safe then a three point alone. I would encourage that solution over stock 3-points; but that is not an official position, only my opinion. The last car I instructed in was on street tires, with three point belts. It was very difficult to remain in the seat. Holding on to the arm rest is to be strongly discouraged, particularly in a 996 or Boxster because of the position of the air bag -- if you had a lap belt you could at least hang on to that. One of the folks on this board tried to eject me out of the car on a left hand turn on the Shenandoah circuit. 3 point belts and amoralled nonsports seats were useless - very scary - door flew open and there I was trying to grab something while hanging out the door. A 3-inch lap belt augmenting the three-point sure would have been nice.
Given the rule changes that we expect to see., ie no harnesses with stock seats unless they are equipped with sub-hole and shoulder strap hole. I really see no problem with augmenting the 3-point with a lap belt to keep you from sliding all over the freshly amoralled seats. I also read somewhere that this would not be allowed; although, I can find no test data to indicate that this is less safe then a three point alone. I would encourage that solution over stock 3-points; but that is not an official position, only my opinion. The last car I instructed in was on street tires, with three point belts. It was very difficult to remain in the seat. Holding on to the arm rest is to be strongly discouraged, particularly in a 996 or Boxster because of the position of the air bag -- if you had a lap belt you could at least hang on to that. One of the folks on this board tried to eject me out of the car on a left hand turn on the Shenandoah circuit. 3 point belts and amoralled nonsports seats were useless - very scary - door flew open and there I was trying to grab something while hanging out the door. A 3-inch lap belt augmenting the three-point sure would have been nice.
