RedlineMan

No they don't;

Don't take advice from racers, because it will not pertain to you. You are doing recreational driving. They are racing. nothing against them, but they are used to spending a ton of money for very little gain. Gains that don't matter to you. The best advice was from M758 and David Ray. Rational and real world, which racing advice is generally not.

I have never done ANYTHING to my Toyos except drive them. No shave, no heat cycle, no nothin. My current set have gone past 100 cycles and have just started to cord, mostly because I overdrove Mid Ohio's new pavement this year and did not flip them soon enough. My previous set NEVER corded with well over 200 cycles. I still have them! Read my lips - THEY ARE THE BEST R-TIRE AVAILABLE FOR RECREATIONAL USE, PERIOD.

They are not the fastest tire, but a good driver on Toyos will beat a lesser driver on Hoosiers every time. If you are running for podiums, and your competition has Hoosiers - or shaved Toyos - you might need them. Otherwise both are a waste of money. If you can't drive around a little squirm for a few sessions, you have your head screwed on crooked, at least for DE. If it rains, you'll be happy you left them alone.

I am generally within 1-2 seconds of PCA pole times, by the way.

Veloce Raptor

Buy slightly used World Challenge RA1 take-offs. There is a different thread here selling them for $50 each. Already shaved, plenty of life left for recreational use, cheap, long lasting.

M758

I shave my RA-1's, but I am competing on them.

The reason I shave them is that they do have tread squirm full tread. Also in the first few sessions they seem to be a bit slow.

I my experience it takes 5 or 6 heat cycles (20 min sessions) for a 4/32 shaved toyo to get up to the same speed as well worn tire. Why? I am not sure other then I think it some if it requires the tread to be worn down and some has to due with repeated rubber curing from cycling. Full tread tires take 8-12 to get to the same speed. Their overall life in my use does not seem to change.

I have been getting about 32-35 heat cycles from my Toyo's before they get slick. Unlike Redlineman losing 1 second a lap on my tires is just not acceptable. Again since I am in racing evironment lap times are critical. So once their grip drops off I toss them. If I were just running DE I would keep using them till I saw steel. Full tread they are excellent in the rain and that is really the only time they are directional. In the dry or once worn down to 4/32 tread you can run them forward or backward. I run 225/50 R15 on all 4 corners of the car and this allows me to rotate my tires each track day so I can keep the wear very even. The only time I have had a certain tire wear more than the rest was due to driver incuded a flat spot. Certainly not the tire's fault.

At full tread they are great full wets and handle anything a street tire would. Better than street tires even in the wet. At 4/32 they are good intermediates. They can handle light rain, but once the water gets deep you need to watch out. 2/32 (when the look slick) they are only good for a very light mist if you can keep heat in them. Ok for the street in the dry, but not ideal. However on my car once down to looking slick I can still get 20+ usefull heat cycles from them. Best bet is to run two sets as this allows you to really run down a set till the bitter end. Otherwise you make "toss" a perfectly good set since they may look like you can't get through the weekend with them, when infact they are good 3 more weekends. For racing used I like to have on set I am workign in (first 4-5 heat cycles) that I run in practice and then my race set which I used for qual & race until they get old. This gives me the abilty to always have 1 set of tires in their sweet spot. Since I race in the desert rain tires are not needed, but If rain did occur alot I would probably use 3 sets. 1 Full tread rain set, 1 set 4/32 worn in (old rain set), 1 "slick" dry race set. With 3 sets of tires like this you are ready for any rain condition. I would try to set-up a rotation through these tires so as they wore down they would go from Rain, to intermediate, to dry.

I do have to agree with John, Toyo RA-1 are probably the best value for DE R-tire. Enough grip to be loads of fun, Tough and take abuse, long lasting and reasonable initial cost, plus with tread can be used in the rain. What more can you ask for.

kgorman

No mention of Michelin Pilot Sport Cups at all eh? I am interested in hearing how people compare them to RA-1s for DE. I run them and love them, but to be fair, I have never run anything else in R compound on my car so I can't really compare/contrast.

M758

I have never run the MPSC. Reason is they cost $200 ea vs $128 each in my size.

kgorman

I just searched, the topic is a dead horse. MPSC for heavier cars is faster, but more expensive, be sure to rotate, RA1 for lighter cars, get them shaved, they last a long time, and keep getting better.

TheOtherEric

You can get 200 sessions out of RA1's on a 944 ?!?!?!?! Although I'm a bit (well ok, extremely) skeptical, it sounds like the RA1's are far better for 944's than on 3000-lb 911's, since you can only get 30-40 sessions on the latter. Your experiences definitely put RA1's in a different perspective for me; I think I'm done with RA1s.

Greg Smith

RA-1 wear really depends how hard you're pushing. I usually get ~16 25minute session on a 3-4/32(scrubs) set of RA-1's.

EDIT-235/40/17, 3350lbs with me

George A

Eric, I'm with you on the 200 sessions. I don't think they last that long on SM's. On a 3064lbs car (without driver), I get at most 40 non-race sessions. I've never raced on them and I never shave. They are not great but they also aren't that bad on heavy cars. I do think the MPSC are hands down better on heavier cars, as long as the track temps don't dip below the 50's.

G.

M758

Eric,
On my 2600lbs with driver 944 I get 32-35 heat cycles from my RA-1's. This is consistant over 6 sets of tires. Remember I toss then when they feel too slick, but still have rubber. With the way I drive my car on the tracks I run on there is no way I could get 200 heat cycles on my RA-1's. It just won't happen. I can probaby squeeze 50 if I don't mind sliding alot. To get 200 heat cycles I would have to really back down the pace and not beat them up as much as I do. Even so I am VERY happy with their life. I think I might get a weekend out of set of hoosiers (8 heat cycle) at the rate I use the toyo's.

RedlineMan

Alright;

You're correct. I did lie. I DID cord one a couple years ago. Otherwise I'd still be using them! I bought them from Goodman Tire. They supplied a customer who used them on a Talon Turbo at the Daytona enduro. They had .75-1.5 hours of torture on them. The guy supposedly had some deal with Toyo, so every time he came in for fuel, he changed tires.

MPSCs are indeed designed for heavy cars. They work well there, perhaps better than an RA1. I don't have a fat car, so I don't know. Perhaps it is also easier to overdrive a tire with a heavy car too, eh? MPSCs do not represent a good value for lighter cars in my opinion. They are hard to get up to temp unless you can push them very hard. I could get mine to temp, and when I did they worked well enough, but not better than the Toyos. You might think that a tire designed for heavy cars would also last longer on a light one, but you would be incorrect. Mine did not last as long as the Toyos do.

For a guy stepping up from street tires, the Toyo will provide the perfect segue for all the reasons stated previously. Hoosiers will make you feel too invincible even though you are not. Michelins are expensive and may not work well if you can't get them hot.
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I can snap a pic of my three remaining "old" RA1s for you all, if you'd like. My "new" set - which saw about 100 cycles LAST YEAR (their 2nd year) - Just corded 2 weeks ago. I'd chalk it up to good driving.

George A

John, agree with your assessment. I'm not saying anything bad about the RA1's, I have them on my car and will get other sets. I like them because they are a good value and they are fun to drive on. Although, I can overheat them on my car if I go a little wild. What I really like about them is their consistency, durability and predictability. Now how you get so much time on your tires, I will never know.

While I think the MPSC are a tad faster, they are not as forgiving and just plain suck in cold weather. Oh yeah, they don't do so well on light cars. The thing I love about them is that you can go all out for sixty minutes and the more you overcook them, the better they stick. One funny thing I learned is that after a hairy moment, I could go pretty hard into the next turn or two. Don't try that with Hoosiers. Of course, I have three sets of Hoosiers in the garage....... Oh, I think you give Hoosiers too much credit, they are not head and shoulders about the rest. I plan on racing on the MPSC and DE's on the Toyos.

Ok, what I'm really trying to say is that there are many factors in deciding on track tires and there isn't a clear overall winner. I can tell you that down here in Texas (hotter than hell), the norm is for the lighter cars to run Toyo's and heavier cars to run MPSC. For racing, most use Hoosiers.

G.

Veloce Raptor

Also depends on the abrasiveness of the track(s) you use. For us, Greg, TWS is very easy on tires (at least for me) whereas MSR Cresson is very hard on them, especially the new section.

I also agree with George about Hoosiers. Not THAT much better, IMO.

Bull

RA 1 pricing in 18" sizes needed for my 993 is not as attractive over MPSCs and Hoosiers (if not more than Hoosiers) as it is in 17" and smaller sizes. In fact they don't offer the rear size.

Greg Smith

I get about the same wear at TWS and MSR-C. I wasn't counting this weekend but I think I did around 16 sessions at TWS and corded 3 of my RA-1's, 2 of those to the metal.