Passing in the Braking Zone
10-17-2006, 02:13 PM
#16
Originally Posted by M758
Racing is more mind games than actual driving. Sure driving gets you there, but getting into someones head is an essential part of making a pass. Of course "spooking" is only one method. There are many many others. If racing were down to just who is faster then we could just do qualfying then all go home. 
10-17-2006, 02:14 PM
#17
Originally Posted by }{arlequin
from what i know about td, i think he doesn't consider that as the "racing" part of racing, though you're right. in my book, if it works, then it is.
10-17-2006, 02:14 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Summit ?
If you're faster thru T4, then you can charge down the outside going into T5...and make an 'outside pass there. YOU are the one at risk here, as they can take you out if they do something stupid. What is great fun in doing this is that, as they exit T5, you can see the lightbulb go on in their head as they realize that they're f$%#ed for 6A, and that you'll spank their *** all the way up the hill thru 9. It's a great place to open up breathing room, if you've got big cayoons going into T5.
The beauty of pulling off outside passes is that the passee knows that you've tatoo'ed a giant "L" on their forehead, and they'll quit slowing you down after that.
If you're faster thru T4, then you can charge down the outside going into T5...and make an 'outside pass there. YOU are the one at risk here, as they can take you out if they do something stupid. What is great fun in doing this is that, as they exit T5, you can see the lightbulb go on in their head as they realize that they're f$%#ed for 6A, and that you'll spank their *** all the way up the hill thru 9. It's a great place to open up breathing room, if you've got big cayoons going into T5.
The beauty of pulling off outside passes is that the passee knows that you've tatoo'ed a giant "L" on their forehead, and they'll quit slowing you down after that.
10-17-2006, 02:15 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
Summit ?
If you're faster thru T4, then you can charge down the outside going into T5...and make an 'outside pass there. YOU are the one at risk here, as they can take you out if they do something stupid. What is great fun in doing this is that, as they exit T5, you can see the lightbulb go on in their head as they realize that they're f$%#ed for 6A, and that you'll spank their *** all the way up the hill thru 9. It's a great place to open up breathing room, if you've got big cayoons going into T5.
The beauty of pulling off outside passes is that the passee knows that you've tatoo'ed a giant "L" on their forehead, and they'll quit slowing you down after that.
If you're faster thru T4, then you can charge down the outside going into T5...and make an 'outside pass there. YOU are the one at risk here, as they can take you out if they do something stupid. What is great fun in doing this is that, as they exit T5, you can see the lightbulb go on in their head as they realize that they're f$%#ed for 6A, and that you'll spank their *** all the way up the hill thru 9. It's a great place to open up breathing room, if you've got big cayoons going into T5.
The beauty of pulling off outside passes is that the passee knows that you've tatoo'ed a giant "L" on their forehead, and they'll quit slowing you down after that.
I can't tell you how close I came to doing that several times . . . T4 seems to scare people . . .
10-17-2006, 02:17 PM
#20
Race Director
Originally Posted by TD in DC
They both took T4 way slower than I typically do, but I guess I just didn't have big enough ***** to try to pass going down the chute into T5. Seems like a relatively high risk area, although the reward would be tremendous if you can pull it off because I could create some serious space between T5 and T9, which might well give me enough space to get a really good run at T10 so that I could make it to T1.
Hey TD if we were racing together.... well Yep you can't pass there and you can't pass in 10 either. Just too risky. Just wait behind them all race long.
10-17-2006, 02:20 PM
#21
Race Director
Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
The beauty of pulling off outside passes is that the passee knows that you've tatoo'ed a giant "L" on their forehead, and they'll quit slowing you down after that.
Ha... I pulled an outside pass over this blue/yellow BMW this past weekend. After that he stay back for 10 laps or so and I had dice for class position. He was driving a 1:02 capable car, but turning on 1:14's.
10-17-2006, 02:26 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
Also, as part of the mind fuch games...they're driving the $50k love of their life car, and you're driving a POS $8k 944. Get in close enough and they'll give you room. Heck, they might even complain. ;-)
10-17-2006, 02:30 PM
#23
Rennlist
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Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
The best techniques are hidden in each racer's bag of tricks, which they are unlikely to discuss with anyone they might be racing against in the future.
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
10-17-2006, 02:41 PM
#24
Yeah, between T6 and T7 is where I had the serious natural inclination to pass because both cars go far out to the left to set up for the right hander there. Several times I would get my nose in up to the rear quarters/back of the door, and I could have sworn that I made it to the front of the door a few times, but the cars, one in particular, would come down anyway. I backed out in order to avoid a problem/contact. I sometimes would continue on and try to push the issue in T7 by switching over to the left because they would swing out to the right to setup for T8, and several times I tried to get by on the inside of T9 but I could never "quite" make it stick there (well, I did get by once . . . ). Obviously it is my inexperience because drivers with cars similar to mine got by without a problem . . .
10-17-2006, 03:13 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
TD, I started with Rich (42nd) at the back of the "dry" sprint on Sunday. "D" were the slowest cars on the track, but I needed to pass at least 10 C and GTS cars to get back into D cars running well ended up making up 17 spots ( 5 DNFs). One technic that worked was using traffic: Approaching T1, I would see who is coming up off the back straight from GTC cars. I knew to look for the ones running a couple of seconds faster a lap than me and grab their tail coming out of T10 for a draft to the tower. By giving them an inside pass into 10, you can carry enough moment to follow a faster car for a little bit. The car agonizing you usually gives way to the faster car and has a hard time seeing you on his tail. If you get through T1 clean and he/she catches you again, then tough luck.
10-17-2006, 05:12 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by renvagn
Question: Is passing allowed in the turn and is there inconsistency with cars not maintaining lines thru turns once they have made their move.Yes, and yes. That's half the fun.
10-17-2006, 05:20 PM
#28
Here is my rookie understanding.
Passing is always allowed anywhere. The only catch is who has the right, or more accurately put, who has the obligation to yield at any given space in the track, whether it is in a corner or not.
There are plenty of corners where whole groups of cars go through side by side all the way through. This can be a decent way to let a faster car by.
The interesting part comes when someone wants the apex and two cars are entering the corner roughly at the same time. Who has the right to the line they want . . .and who must yield . . . At least to this rookie, it is not always obvious when someone has really earned the right to make you yield, and this sport tends to favor the ballsy, the wealthy and the crazy, because they can back their "bluffs" up more effectively. If you are all three, you would be unstoppable, at least until you "run into" your doppleganger. Or at least this is my initial impression.
Passing is always allowed anywhere. The only catch is who has the right, or more accurately put, who has the obligation to yield at any given space in the track, whether it is in a corner or not.
There are plenty of corners where whole groups of cars go through side by side all the way through. This can be a decent way to let a faster car by.
The interesting part comes when someone wants the apex and two cars are entering the corner roughly at the same time. Who has the right to the line they want . . .and who must yield . . . At least to this rookie, it is not always obvious when someone has really earned the right to make you yield, and this sport tends to favor the ballsy, the wealthy and the crazy, because they can back their "bluffs" up more effectively. If you are all three, you would be unstoppable, at least until you "run into" your doppleganger.
Or at least this is my initial impression.
10-17-2006, 06:19 PM
#29
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TD,
I used both Helmet and Bob's ideas successfully at the CR to make a pass stick.
I started the pass a couple of times in turn 5 on the outside (yes the chute tended to see a lot of slower moving cars) and it sets you up perfectly to finish the pass in turn 6 as you have the inside line and if they want to race you side by side you are setup for turn 9 on the inside.
I also used traffic a couple of times to pass a car that was slower in the corner but faster in a straight line. THis happened for me in turn 3 and the carousel at different times. These are the places where you would have enough track distance and turns to build up enough space so they won't catch you again between 9 and 10 or 10 and 1.
Bob - nice to meet you briefly at Summit and to see you walk away from me on the track.
In my first race I kept trying to pass in the brake zone in turn 1 and never got the ***** to put my nose in there completely, so wouldn't be able to make it stick. In my second CR weekend I was a little more aggressive and comfortable with the situation and you will see the same change next year. Also, being a little more creative with the setup and pass takes learning through experience (I'm on the path, but only one step down that one and have a million steps to go).
Love these posts TD.
-Skip
I used both Helmet and Bob's ideas successfully at the CR to make a pass stick.
I started the pass a couple of times in turn 5 on the outside (yes the chute tended to see a lot of slower moving cars) and it sets you up perfectly to finish the pass in turn 6 as you have the inside line and if they want to race you side by side you are setup for turn 9 on the inside.
I also used traffic a couple of times to pass a car that was slower in the corner but faster in a straight line. THis happened for me in turn 3 and the carousel at different times. These are the places where you would have enough track distance and turns to build up enough space so they won't catch you again between 9 and 10 or 10 and 1.
Bob - nice to meet you briefly at Summit and to see you walk away from me on the track.
In my first race I kept trying to pass in the brake zone in turn 1 and never got the ***** to put my nose in there completely, so wouldn't be able to make it stick. In my second CR weekend I was a little more aggressive and comfortable with the situation and you will see the same change next year. Also, being a little more creative with the setup and pass takes learning through experience (I'm on the path, but only one step down that one and have a million steps to go).
Love these posts TD.
-Skip
10-17-2006, 06:32 PM
#30
Lifetime Rennlist Member
I will share one of my hard learned lessons about passing and making it stick.
You often see a classic pass and repass situation. You can attempt to conter this with the first pass, by overslowing a bit just at or just after the apex. You have to watch and time it to make the other car lift a bit when they wanted to go full throttle. That drops them to your speed and the pass will stick. With a much faster car, you can modify this by going off line to make them lift big at the exit. It is about making your car as wide as possible and controlling their speed and line.
You often see a classic pass and repass situation. You can attempt to conter this with the first pass, by overslowing a bit just at or just after the apex. You have to watch and time it to make the other car lift a bit when they wanted to go full throttle. That drops them to your speed and the pass will stick. With a much faster car, you can modify this by going off line to make them lift big at the exit. It is about making your car as wide as possible and controlling their speed and line.