gerry100

Run groups are not consistent, this from someone who has run DE with various PCA and BMWCCA chapters.

Another factor to consider is that cars are not consistent, drivers with big buck automotons ( abs,PSM,power everything) can advance qicker than those driving the older beasts( IMHO).

Why - the major consistent criteria to go solo is safety ( as it should be) - ie- awareness of other vehicles,seeing the flags and having a feel for the fundamentals. Not necessarily good at the fundamentals just a grasp.

In the first solo run group ( white,purple whatever) you have people improving their fundamentals via repitition an dthose thet have improved theirs significantly already.

Maybe a little off topic, but one problem I've seen is that getting signed off is an ego/validation thing for some. It's fun to go out alone, but 100% of those in the "white" group can benefit greatly from good instruction.

After I was signed off , I promptly fell into some bad habits that took 2 DE's ( and a ride with an excellent instructor) to straighten out. Maybe it was me, but it was like trying to correct your own golf swing.

My feeling is, don't worry about what run group you are in and get as much instruction as you can.
My instructors have varied from excellent, to good to ballast. But even the ballast added a little something.

gerry100

Run groups are not consistent, this from someone who has run DE with various PCA and BMWCCA chapters.

Another factor to consider is that cars are not consistent, drivers with big buck automotons ( abs,PSM,power everything) can advance qicker than those driving the older beasts( IMHO).

The major consistent criteria to go solo is safety ( as it should be) - ie- awareness of other vehicles,seeing the flags and having a feel for the fundamentals. Not necessarily good at the fundamentals just a grasp.

In the first solo run group ( white,purple whatever) you have people improving their fundamentals via repitition andt hose that have improved theirs significantly already.

Maybe a little off topic, but one problem I've seen is that getting signed off is an ego/validation thing for some. It's fun to go out alone, but 100% of those in the "white" group can benefit greatly from good instruction.

After I was signed off , I promptly fell into some bad habits that took 2 DE's ( and a ride with an excellent instructor) to straighten out. Maybe it was me, but it was like trying to correct your own golf swing.

My feeling is, don't worry about what run group you are in and get as much instruction as you can.
My instructors have varied from excellent, to good to ballast. But even the ballast added a little something.

smankow

Gerry, I agree with you. Just because you are in an uninstructed group doesn't mean that you don't need instruction. It means that you are capable of driving on your own. I try to seek out an instructor or two at each event to ride with me. This keeps me fresh and working on things that are above the blue group classrooms.

Steve

Gary R.

CVR has just started Classroom meetings for upper run groups and I think it's a great idea. In it we get to meet all the people in our run group, and as most of us have a core of a few people we know well it's good to see and hear the concerns of the other people running with you. A possible way to supplement the data points you use to decide when a student is ready to be evaluated for a promotion might be to simply poll (anonymously if it's more comfortable) the group itself to see who they feel is ready to move up within the group..

M758

One thing NASA does is they have post session "downloads" with all of their DE groups. They use thes as way to talk about on track activity and be a quick way of answering questions. It is not as formal as a classroom, but can be a good way to have and instructor level person to talk to even in the non instructed groups.

bobt993

Larry, I spoke with Jack this weekend about extending this to includea a car control clinic as part of evaluating graduation on students. He thinks we can work this into our Summit/Shenandoah event making it mandantory to all drivers including instructors. You and I both know there are guys/gals in all groups that have never driven in rain or had an OMG moment which needs this basic skill. I hope it goes through since it would have saved my student from hitting the wall this weekend on the South Course. Still bummed that it happened.

soldmystang

i am not an instructor, nor an overly experienced DE'er, but why would a Blue student have an OMG moment? i was in that run group on South and i think the student might have been better served by some laps in green group. intermediate groups are not a good place for students that are timid on track.

now please forgive my brash attitude, i was not in the car and i am not an instructor, i mean no disrespect to you bobt993.

i understand this particular club is in leadership transition but the classroom sessions for blue/green left a great deal to be desired.

no flag review but in the general drivers meeting on saturday. sunday morning's meeting was a plea for restraint in following too closely. i was as guilty of that as anybody.

i think much credit should go to the in car instructors for keeping this event relatively incident free. the event ran on time and the weather was great so i really shouldn't bitch. sorry for the hijack.

bobt993

Mr. Stang, I am not sure what track you were on. South Course was Friday. North course was Sat,Sun. This was a Green student running in a Green group. Weather was not good. We had rain, fog that closed the course for 4 hours. Rain and yes rain again. I am not interested in Students driving fast or passing their buddies only driving smooth, consistent and under control. Their still remains a risk at DE, even when a student exihibits no "symptoms" of driving poorly. Only one moment of turning in hard and then lifting and a car balanced at 50% weight has a polar moment. As far as flags, I do not attend the morning meetings since I am in the instructor meeting, but I recall looking out the door to see the cheif corner worker waving flags as he drilled their usage. Maybe you missed the meeting or again, were at a different track.
If you are not an instructor, then please leave comments to experienced individuals and read what they have to say.

Greg Smith

Just curious; There's not a black run group around here, where's that on the spectrum?

smankow

I agree with Bob 100%. I'm not an instructor, but was at the drivers meeting each of the three mornings. I certainly don't recall any discussion about restraint in following too closely. As for flags, they are covered daily and "newbies" are given extra attention in this.

As for the leadership transition, it is a normal occurence for any organization. The transition was been ongoing for the entire season and has actually been going very smoothly. In a different thread, Larry H. is working with our incoming CI to personnally take the White run group under his wing and work with them for improvement.

For the weather, I do think that Bob was a little off. Friday on South was a beautiful but cool day. The fog came on Saturday (lost the morning) and rain was intermittent throughout Sunday.

I don't know if you were at Pocono this weekend, what car you were in or even what run group. RTR runs very good, well organized event. Not to mention that the purpose of this DE was our annual fundraiser for Make-A-Wish.

so, whatever track you were at, I hope you enjoyed it.


Steve

soldmystang

my mistake, my apologies. different "south" course this past weekend.

however, this particular incident collected the car behind it also. not mine.

this particular individual did not appear to be aware of traffic behind them. as my safety is involved i was concerned that this individual had more car than experience and therefore should have probably been in a lower group.

i was not involved nor adversely affected. i realize i sound like a keyboard cowboy here, and for that i profusely apologize.

lesson learned? yes. always be aware of worst case scenario when following a car you do not know. and be very careful following those that you do.

again Bob, my apologies.

bobt993

Steve, the comments pertained specifically to Sat, Sun, and yes Friday was great, but irrelevant to the poster. As you know, Sat, Sun were crappy at best. Many attendees never make the first day on the a 3 day weekend and that was why I thought it apparent this was a different DE. My initial comment was based on Larry's talking about car control clinic. I think this is extremely important and should be mandantory. Potomac does this and I really think it is a great idea.

mooty

i did my first event with PCA here in CA. they assigned me to the 2nd fastest group. what i noticed is that despite the large speed/skill difference among the drivers, in my group everyone was very observant and after 1-2 session, everyone seemed to know which cars are fast and which are slow. they quickly pointed me by, never did i have to wait for more than one turn.

smankow

Bob, I agree with having car control clinics. It can only help ALL skill levels. this has been on discussion in our forum, too.

BTW, how is the car? Hopefully, running soon.


Steve

bobt993

Trans is out and in the good doctors hands, will know tomorrow, $$$$$, and time. Needs to be back in before the Summit club race next week.