Horsing the car...
09-26-2006, 09:31 AM
#16
Originally Posted by dnitake
TD, isn't about time you put out some more video? You seem to be on a steep learning curve. I, for one, am very interested in your progress.
I am good enough that, for the most part, nothing too obviously wrong sticks out, but not yet fast enough that the experienced drivers go "wow" simply on the basis of lap time, so I have calmed down with the video business.
I have a friend who is blue group 944 who has asked me to post a 2:26 lap at VIR (the lap that matches the data I posted a few weeks ago), which I may do as a favor to him. Depending upon how the Club race goes in two weeks, maybe I will post some video from the Summit Point races. Race video is usually interesting regardless of how well or poorly the driver is driving.
Why not post some of your video? I am convinced that the only reason I have learned so much in a short period of time is that I have had great instructors, I have received great feedback from this site, and I got into a low HP car . . .
In any event, the learning is the fun part. If I ever get to the point where I don't have any room for improvement, which I seriously doubt will occur, I will quit cold turkey . . .
09-26-2006, 03:19 PM
#17
Race Director
There is also something else to consider.
Car set-up may inducing poor driving. My point is when most people first start they can't drive all that well and understeer/oversteer is mostly a result of poor driving. Bad lines and poor technique.
Well at somepoint their driving skills improve and they are taking good lines and making the most of the car. In some cases the car then becomes the next limit. It may not be the itself, but the set-up of the car. If a driver does not soon realize is set-up is hosed he may try to drive around these weaknesses and thus learn to drive in a poor style. The example would be if you have hurt leg and limp a little. Sure you can still do alot, but in time you really may be limited by the limp and if you don't get that fixed and then learn how to walk propely you will never have success.
So all this "horsing around" may feel like you are really driving the car and may infact be they fastest way with you car as is, but a small aligment, tire pressure, ride height change may "fix" the car allowing you to just drive the car around far faster than "horsing it around".
I have a friend in a 944 spec. He never seemed fast, and always look like he was really working the car hard. Well even riding with him I did not notice much except he really worked hard. So I drove the car one day and 1 lap I pulled in because the had terrible understeer. It was so bad I did not even want to drive it even at 7/10th speed. So we made a front sway bar change and now he says it is better spots, but has too much oversteer in a long sweeping turn. My guess is that he is so used to manhandling the through there that now that it is much close to turning properly it feel really loose. So no only do I need to get the car set-up right, but I also need to work with the driver to understand what the car should feel like rather than continuting to try to "drive around" an ill handling car.
Car set-up may inducing poor driving. My point is when most people first start they can't drive all that well and understeer/oversteer is mostly a result of poor driving. Bad lines and poor technique.
Well at somepoint their driving skills improve and they are taking good lines and making the most of the car. In some cases the car then becomes the next limit. It may not be the itself, but the set-up of the car. If a driver does not soon realize is set-up is hosed he may try to drive around these weaknesses and thus learn to drive in a poor style. The example would be if you have hurt leg and limp a little. Sure you can still do alot, but in time you really may be limited by the limp and if you don't get that fixed and then learn how to walk propely you will never have success.
So all this "horsing around" may feel like you are really driving the car and may infact be they fastest way with you car as is, but a small aligment, tire pressure, ride height change may "fix" the car allowing you to just drive the car around far faster than "horsing it around".
I have a friend in a 944 spec. He never seemed fast, and always look like he was really working the car hard. Well even riding with him I did not notice much except he really worked hard. So I drove the car one day and 1 lap I pulled in because the had terrible understeer. It was so bad I did not even want to drive it even at 7/10th speed. So we made a front sway bar change and now he says it is better spots, but has too much oversteer in a long sweeping turn. My guess is that he is so used to manhandling the through there that now that it is much close to turning properly it feel really loose. So no only do I need to get the car set-up right, but I also need to work with the driver to understand what the car should feel like rather than continuting to try to "drive around" an ill handling car.
09-26-2006, 03:21 PM
#18
Originally Posted by M758
There is also something else to consider.
Car set-up may inducing poor driving. My point is when most people first start they can't drive all that well and understeer/oversteer is mostly a result of poor driving. Bad lines and poor technique.
Well at somepoint their driving skills improve and they are taking good lines and making the most of the car. In some cases the car then becomes the next limit. It may not be the itself, but the set-up of the car. If a driver does not soon realize is set-up is hosed he may try to drive around these weaknesses and thus learn to drive in a poor style. The example would be if you have hurt leg and limp a little. Sure you can still do alot, but in time you really may be limited by the limp and if you don't get that fixed and then learn how to walk propely you will never have success.
So all this "horsing around" may feel like you are really driving the car and may infact be they fastest way with you car as is, but a small aligment, tire pressure, ride height change may "fix" the car allowing you to just drive the car around far faster than "horsing it around".
I have a friend in a 944 spec. He never seemed fast, and always look like he was really working the car hard. Well even riding with him I did not notice much except he really worked hard. So I drove the car one day and 1 lap I pulled in because the had terrible understeer. It was so bad I did not even want to drive it even at 7/10th speed. So we made a front sway bar change and now he says it is better spots, but has too much oversteer in a long sweeping turn. My guess is that he is so used to manhandling the through there that now that it is much close to turning properly it feel really loose. So no only do I need to get the car set-up right, but I also need to work with the driver to understand what the car should feel like rather than continuting to try to "drive around" an ill handling car.
Car set-up may inducing poor driving. My point is when most people first start they can't drive all that well and understeer/oversteer is mostly a result of poor driving. Bad lines and poor technique.
Well at somepoint their driving skills improve and they are taking good lines and making the most of the car. In some cases the car then becomes the next limit. It may not be the itself, but the set-up of the car. If a driver does not soon realize is set-up is hosed he may try to drive around these weaknesses and thus learn to drive in a poor style. The example would be if you have hurt leg and limp a little. Sure you can still do alot, but in time you really may be limited by the limp and if you don't get that fixed and then learn how to walk propely you will never have success.
So all this "horsing around" may feel like you are really driving the car and may infact be they fastest way with you car as is, but a small aligment, tire pressure, ride height change may "fix" the car allowing you to just drive the car around far faster than "horsing it around".
I have a friend in a 944 spec. He never seemed fast, and always look like he was really working the car hard. Well even riding with him I did not notice much except he really worked hard. So I drove the car one day and 1 lap I pulled in because the had terrible understeer. It was so bad I did not even want to drive it even at 7/10th speed. So we made a front sway bar change and now he says it is better spots, but has too much oversteer in a long sweeping turn. My guess is that he is so used to manhandling the through there that now that it is much close to turning properly it feel really loose. So no only do I need to get the car set-up right, but I also need to work with the driver to understand what the car should feel like rather than continuting to try to "drive around" an ill handling car.
There probably is a lot of truth to this . . .
09-26-2006, 03:53 PM
#20
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Dan: Yes, I was there with NCRC on Friday and Dave talked me into the relay race. I was disappointed to miss the exhibition race as I though it would take longer than it did to change the rear springs, so I didn't go to the drivers meeting. They got the spring change done in about 25 minutes and I could have made the race, so I was a bit bummed.
I spent the day working to get my suspension isssues sorted out. We went through some diabolical setups that were no fun to drive (one resulted in a 360 in turn 1 - a lot of pucker factor there) which is sort of what Joe is saying above - phrased another way - a poor suspension setup can make the car hard to drive. If you are having issues, it might be worthwhile to have a really good driver try your car and comment on the handling. I had alot of help getting mine sorted out in time for the races on Saturday and Sunday and they went much better.
I spent the day working to get my suspension isssues sorted out. We went through some diabolical setups that were no fun to drive (one resulted in a 360 in turn 1 - a lot of pucker factor there) which is sort of what Joe is saying above - phrased another way - a poor suspension setup can make the car hard to drive. If you are having issues, it might be worthwhile to have a really good driver try your car and comment on the handling. I had alot of help getting mine sorted out in time for the races on Saturday and Sunday and they went much better.
09-26-2006, 08:39 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Rapid Throttle Blips, very interesting. Never seen that technique. Have seen a similar technique with the steering wheel (rapid unwinding and rewinding to get grip back during plowing).
Found another Senna video, hate to talk bad about the deceased but....
video
Found another Senna video, hate to talk bad about the deceased but....
video
09-26-2006, 10:34 PM
#22
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Regarding the Senna video regarding the throttle work. I'm not positive, but I think it's a habit that comes from droving very high powered turbo cars. You had to get deep into the throttle very early (because of all the lag), but then had to get right back out of the throttle before all the boost came on at once in the corner. Pretty much all the old turbo-era F1 drovers drove like that, and so did the old Gruppe-B rally drovers. Maybe Senna never made the transition to "smooth" on the throttle, but I remember drivers like Mansell and Prost talking about it.
09-26-2006, 11:12 PM
#23
Originally Posted by analogmike
Rapid Throttle Blips, very interesting. Never seen that technique. Have seen a similar technique with the steering wheel (rapid unwinding and rewinding to get grip back during plowing).
Found another Senna video, hate to talk bad about the deceased but....
video
Found another Senna video, hate to talk bad about the deceased but....
video
