Instructing at 11/10ths
08-31-2006, 10:25 AM
#62
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I don't have PSM so help me out here. Why can't you go trail braking as much as you want? I would think PSM only would interfere in acceleration modes. It would be interesting to be able to have it in my car for a session.
BTW, just to clarify, agio is quite a fast driver. He is very smooth as well so maybe that's why PSM doesn't affect him so much.
BTW, just to clarify, agio is quite a fast driver. He is very smooth as well so maybe that's why PSM doesn't affect him so much.
08-31-2006, 10:40 AM
#63
I think that is the biggest problem with disagreements about the utility/faults of PSM: If you have never lived with a car that has PSM, it is very hard to understand how it intrudes, what causes it to engage, and how it can limit your driving.
It doesn't surpise me at all that Agio can be very fast and not be affected by PSM since he is smooth. That is my point. The smoother you are, the less PSM is an issue until you start really seriously working with LFB and trail braking. PSM can be a great tool to teach you smoothness, and it can detect exceessive slip angles before many drivers do and well before a skid.
You can't do left foot braking with PSM because the computer detects throttle and brakes used at the same time and assumes something is wrong, so it engages (biggest detectible symptom is that it cuts gas, but it may be applying the brakes to one or more wheels as well -- not sure on that). I believe, but am not certain, this is true regardless of whether you have PSM turned on or off on the dash, because PSM can automatically turn intself back on when the brakes are applied under certain circumstances, which is the single biggest, and most valid IMHO, complaint against PSM. Few would be as upset with PSM if you actually could turn it completely off.
With respect to trailbraking, PSM assumes there is a problem if you are applying the brakes AND you exceed 7 degrees of slip. As such, you can't use serious trailbraking to rotate the car because PSM will assume you have a problem once you exceed 7 degrees, at which point PSM will try to straighten the car out for you even though your goal is exactly the opposite. Again, the problem here is that PSM will automatically reengage when you hit the brakes AND exceed a slip angle of 7 degrees even if you have the dash button turned off, so it is a big problem.
So, with respect to PSM, I think it is:
1) great for the street;
2) a good, but not necessary, tool for beginning DE'rs in the green and blue groups that can teach drivers how to be smooth and prevent some accidents without minimizing the seriousness of the event (based upon how the instructor and student handle the engagement);
3) a bad, but not unmanageable, feature for intermediate to advanced drivers in the white, red and black groups (and really not for racing).
BTW, I stopped using my 996 for DE days once I reached the white group. Before that point, I could drive fairly quickly and very smoothly such that I did not ever activate PSM. I always drove with PSM on, primarily because it would turn itself on again anyway in certain circumstances so i didn't see the point for turning it off. I viewed it as an extra learning tool to help remind me that I had exceeded that fine line of "good" sliding and "excessive" sliding at a greater than 7 degree slip angle.
It doesn't surpise me at all that Agio can be very fast and not be affected by PSM since he is smooth. That is my point. The smoother you are, the less PSM is an issue until you start really seriously working with LFB and trail braking. PSM can be a great tool to teach you smoothness, and it can detect exceessive slip angles before many drivers do and well before a skid.
You can't do left foot braking with PSM because the computer detects throttle and brakes used at the same time and assumes something is wrong, so it engages (biggest detectible symptom is that it cuts gas, but it may be applying the brakes to one or more wheels as well -- not sure on that). I believe, but am not certain, this is true regardless of whether you have PSM turned on or off on the dash, because PSM can automatically turn intself back on when the brakes are applied under certain circumstances, which is the single biggest, and most valid IMHO, complaint against PSM. Few would be as upset with PSM if you actually could turn it completely off.
With respect to trailbraking, PSM assumes there is a problem if you are applying the brakes AND you exceed 7 degrees of slip. As such, you can't use serious trailbraking to rotate the car because PSM will assume you have a problem once you exceed 7 degrees, at which point PSM will try to straighten the car out for you even though your goal is exactly the opposite. Again, the problem here is that PSM will automatically reengage when you hit the brakes AND exceed a slip angle of 7 degrees even if you have the dash button turned off, so it is a big problem.
So, with respect to PSM, I think it is:
1) great for the street;
2) a good, but not necessary, tool for beginning DE'rs in the green and blue groups that can teach drivers how to be smooth and prevent some accidents without minimizing the seriousness of the event (based upon how the instructor and student handle the engagement);
3) a bad, but not unmanageable, feature for intermediate to advanced drivers in the white, red and black groups (and really not for racing).
BTW, I stopped using my 996 for DE days once I reached the white group. Before that point, I could drive fairly quickly and very smoothly such that I did not ever activate PSM. I always drove with PSM on, primarily because it would turn itself on again anyway in certain circumstances so i didn't see the point for turning it off. I viewed it as an extra learning tool to help remind me that I had exceeded that fine line of "good" sliding and "excessive" sliding at a greater than 7 degree slip angle.
Last edited by TD in DC; 08-31-2006 at 11:02 AM.
08-31-2006, 10:59 AM
#64
Nordschleife Master
Agio, might just be a difference in setup. The car I have driven with PSM was a boxster S with MPSCs and a full track suspension (600f/800r springs). PSM just did not seem to be able to handle the loads that were being put on the car. As soon as you introduced any slip angle, it would cut the gas. And god forbid you try to trailbrake.
08-31-2006, 11:06 AM
#65
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Todd - good explanation of how some of the PSM systems work on our P-cars. I know that some earlier versions would not automatically turn back on if the brakes are used when the car is in a 'slip-angle' attitude.
I don't have a whole lotta experience with PSM, but I have driven a couple of cars equipped with such devices. One of them was a new Cayman S at an autocross. Now at AX with my car, on some of the sweepers, I could tap my brakes in the middle of the turn to get the car loose by breaking traction at the back end. With the Cayman S, I could not do that, since it would turn PSM back on due to the car's sensors indicating that I'm braking and turning at the same time. So all I could do with the Cayman was to do lift throttle oversteer. Not as effective at tapping the brakes, but one has to adjust given the tools being used. Disclaimer: this tapping of the brakes is an AX technique that really doesn't apply to track driving. And even at AX, it isn't often used effectively.
Interesting how this thread evolved. It seems that most here would agree that if a student is getting PSM to 'light up,' said student is probably attempting to run at 11/10ths.
This by far is the best quote from this thread! Can I drove your car?
-Z-man.
I don't have a whole lotta experience with PSM, but I have driven a couple of cars equipped with such devices. One of them was a new Cayman S at an autocross. Now at AX with my car, on some of the sweepers, I could tap my brakes in the middle of the turn to get the car loose by breaking traction at the back end. With the Cayman S, I could not do that, since it would turn PSM back on due to the car's sensors indicating that I'm braking and turning at the same time. So all I could do with the Cayman was to do lift throttle oversteer. Not as effective at tapping the brakes, but one has to adjust given the tools being used. Disclaimer: this tapping of the brakes is an AX technique that really doesn't apply to track driving. And even at AX, it isn't often used effectively.
Interesting how this thread evolved. It seems that most here would agree that if a student is getting PSM to 'light up,' said student is probably attempting to run at 11/10ths.
Originally Posted by Wreck Me Otter
Oh...sorry...I thought this was a thread about GR....
-Z-man.
08-31-2006, 11:09 AM
#66
Z-man,
I would guess that PSM would be a far bigger problem at autocross than it would at the track since you are using many of the techniques to rotate the car that PSM just doesn't like. Plus, PSM is not nearly as necessary at an autocross to prevent a wreck. PSM simply would be awful if you are an autocrosser. I had not really considered that.
And to be fair to the anti-PSM folks, I think it has taken me longer to become good at trailbraking (and am still working on it) since I started in a car that really doesn't like serious trailbraking.
TD
I would guess that PSM would be a far bigger problem at autocross than it would at the track since you are using many of the techniques to rotate the car that PSM just doesn't like. Plus, PSM is not nearly as necessary at an autocross to prevent a wreck. PSM simply would be awful if you are an autocrosser. I had not really considered that.
And to be fair to the anti-PSM folks, I think it has taken me longer to become good at trailbraking (and am still working on it) since I started in a car that really doesn't like serious trailbraking.
TD
09-01-2006, 05:17 PM
#67
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Well, it's nice to hear all about driving with or without PSM. And thanks Mitch for the nice words (you can pick up your check at the next event :-)) Interesting for me, because unlike my BoxsterS, RSA, and an earlier 911 all of which did not have PSM, my 996 does. I have mentioned as precisely as I could that, from time to time, my PSM reminds me why it's there. I have driven the car with PSM "off," but as noted by others, it kicks back on under certain conditions. But having said that, I can think of several other complaints which concern me way more than PSM...but then again, that's me and I'm a complaining old man.
09-01-2006, 07:42 PM
#68
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I went from a 944turbo to a 99 Boxster with PSM. It took less than a year to get a Boxster specifically without PSM. Too intrusive as 38D has said. After driving a 996 with PSM and a 993 I went with the 993 for the purity of control. If you drove 5 mins in either, the 996 made sense, any longer, 993 won over. Five days on the Nurburgring 2 weeks ago in the rain, you would think DSC on a BMW would be a nice safety factor, but I was much more comfortable with it turned off. With DSC off, laps time dropped around 10 seconds.
09-01-2006, 09:15 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
Y'know, here is something I do with my students who have PSM:
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell them that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell them that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!
Have you driven a PSM equipped car hard on the track?
09-02-2006, 09:16 AM
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So let me get this straight. If you have PSM and you trailbrake into a corner and the rear starts to rotate (achieving greater than 7 degrees slip angle), how does the PSM interfere? Does it lessen brake pressure at specific wheels? I need to drive one with it to get the idea. I have seen it interfere at the safety pin at Sebring where I would pull my friend because I can get on the throttle sooner but haven't noticed much entry speed differences between us. For the purist, I can see why you wouldn't want it but for most folks, I think it isn't much of an issue at all. When I instruct, I require the student leave it on (if the car has it) all the time. I want every safety net I can get when I'm in a car I'm not driving.
Now I would want TC if it works similar to F1. That would be like ABS for the throttle!
Now I would want TC if it works similar to F1. That would be like ABS for the throttle!
09-02-2006, 09:35 AM
#71
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Mitch, PSM monitors the car for what is considered safe stability. Via the ABS system and throttle, the system will "stabilize" the car. Sometimes this is an individual brake application combining with less throttle. Any action provided by PSM will lower speed, so if your purposely inducing oversteer it will dissagree with you often. I partnered with another instructor at a recent Nurburgring closed course event. Rain at the ring is magnitudes more dangerous than anything I have driven in the States. In one area, we double back repeating the course for 90mins and it was raining of course. The DSC in BMWs is similar , but more invasive. We turned DSC on to play with the interruption. With no one in site, my driving partner floored the car into a right hand turn, throwing the car into complete chaos. The DSC blinked at least 10times and corrected the spin. I would have rather jumped from a building than try that demo, but he proved a point about how good the feature is for normal driving.
09-02-2006, 11:00 AM
#72
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OK, how about a suggestion on the PSM instruction debate?
I have a routine that I go through with each new student – I don’t meet them in line for the session, you have to meet then after the first drivers meeting and go over a couple of things.
First and most important is to have a chat and figure out what they want out of track life.
Some want a ‘fun’ experience (PSM stays on)
Some are here because a friend/significant other talked them into it (PSM stays on)
Some think they are hot **** street warriors (PSM stays on)
Some have gold chains (PSM stays on)
Some really want to learn to drive and are willing to listen (PSM gets turned off)
Some are racers looking for more track time (doesn’t matter – they won’t listen anyway!)
I have to toss a stone at John H for any earlier post – (sorry John) but the fact that the student doesn’t have the ‘gift’ does not take away from their need for a positive experience. In fact any semi talented instructor can work with a gifted student – some times you are just ballast. Working with the non gifted students is where the instructors skill really shows. In my mind that is what PCA DE events are all about. Sure – I would rather instruct a gifted and motivated student, its fun and rewarding but getting a non gifted driver to drive better, safer, with more skill (and perhaps faster) takes real instructing and is, in my opinion, very rewarding to the instruction and student.
If I were the god of PCA DE I would make the instructor/student meeting a mandatory part of the DE event. I instruct differently depending on the students goals and ability. Trying to establish a fist dialog while griding and rolling out on the track is not really the most productive method
Chris White
PS – Zman – one of the questions I pose in the initial meeting is always about driving in snow with a rear wheel drive car. Have they done that, do they like it or does it scare them? You will get a quick insight into their experience with sliding and use of throttle modulation to control the rear. Personally I love a good snow storm….
PSS – PSM really save my students and my butt when a non gifted student abruptly lifted coming out of three in the esses at the Glen at 110. I was impressed at how well it righted the modified BMW M5…..we would have been a pinball without it.
I have a routine that I go through with each new student – I don’t meet them in line for the session, you have to meet then after the first drivers meeting and go over a couple of things.
First and most important is to have a chat and figure out what they want out of track life.
Some want a ‘fun’ experience (PSM stays on)
Some are here because a friend/significant other talked them into it (PSM stays on)
Some think they are hot **** street warriors (PSM stays on)
Some have gold chains (PSM stays on)
Some really want to learn to drive and are willing to listen (PSM gets turned off)
Some are racers looking for more track time (doesn’t matter – they won’t listen anyway!)
I have to toss a stone at John H for any earlier post – (sorry John) but the fact that the student doesn’t have the ‘gift’ does not take away from their need for a positive experience. In fact any semi talented instructor can work with a gifted student – some times you are just ballast. Working with the non gifted students is where the instructors skill really shows. In my mind that is what PCA DE events are all about. Sure – I would rather instruct a gifted and motivated student, its fun and rewarding but getting a non gifted driver to drive better, safer, with more skill (and perhaps faster) takes real instructing and is, in my opinion, very rewarding to the instruction and student.
If I were the god of PCA DE I would make the instructor/student meeting a mandatory part of the DE event. I instruct differently depending on the students goals and ability. Trying to establish a fist dialog while griding and rolling out on the track is not really the most productive method
Chris White
PS – Zman – one of the questions I pose in the initial meeting is always about driving in snow with a rear wheel drive car. Have they done that, do they like it or does it scare them? You will get a quick insight into their experience with sliding and use of throttle modulation to control the rear. Personally I love a good snow storm….
PSS – PSM really save my students and my butt when a non gifted student abruptly lifted coming out of three in the esses at the Glen at 110. I was impressed at how well it righted the modified BMW M5…..we would have been a pinball without it.
09-02-2006, 12:05 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by Chris White
I have to toss a stone at John H for any earlier post – (sorry John) but the fact that the student doesn’t have the ‘gift’ does not take away from their need for a positive experience. In fact any semi talented instructor can work with a gifted student – some times you are just ballast. Working with the non gifted students is where the instructors skill really shows. In my mind that is what PCA DE events are all about. Sure – I would rather instruct a gifted and motivated student, its fun and rewarding but getting a non gifted driver to drive better, safer, with more skill (and perhaps faster) takes real instructing and is, in my opinion, very rewarding to the instruction and student.
I mean... you go to an event and you work your butt of trying to teach some dork how to drive and talk at the same time. Then you go to the next event, and... you have to do it all over again! Don't these people ever learn anything?
It would be easier if I didn't give a rodent's rear, eh?
09-02-2006, 12:23 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Yeh, yeh, yeh... Stow yur cape their Superman.
I mean... you go to an event and you work your butt of trying to teach some dork how to drive and talk at the same time. Then you go to the next event, and... you have to do it all over again! Don't these people ever learn anything?
It would be easier if I didn't give a rodent's rear, eh?
I mean... you go to an event and you work your butt of trying to teach some dork how to drive and talk at the same time. Then you go to the next event, and... you have to do it all over again! Don't these people ever learn anything?
It would be easier if I didn't give a rodent's rear, eh?
09-02-2006, 02:24 PM
#75
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With all do respect, I think the goal of a novice student should be about same for all of them, "I came to learn to drive my on a race so I can improve my skills and have some fun (more or less)." If the student's goal is to "drive fast,' then the instructor's goals should be made clear to the student and the instructor's goals should become the student's goals.
Yep, after the drivers' meeting, the instructor and student walks off and the interview begins. Frankly, the PSM is one of the last things I think of (actually, I don't event think I ever discussed PSM for the first several (if at all) sessions).
There is so much in setting the proper tone for the day as well as to teach the basic elements once on the track and just so much any (novice) student can absorb before the first several runs much less the finer points about the PSM. For me, the PSM stays on, period. The student must first earn my confidence in their ability to drive the car correctly and safely on the track. Why get distracted with minutia when there are so many (I can think of a dozen or so at least) more important components for the student to master before the big "PSM debate"?
Yep, after the drivers' meeting, the instructor and student walks off and the interview begins. Frankly, the PSM is one of the last things I think of (actually, I don't event think I ever discussed PSM for the first several (if at all) sessions).
There is so much in setting the proper tone for the day as well as to teach the basic elements once on the track and just so much any (novice) student can absorb before the first several runs much less the finer points about the PSM. For me, the PSM stays on, period. The student must first earn my confidence in their ability to drive the car correctly and safely on the track. Why get distracted with minutia when there are so many (I can think of a dozen or so at least) more important components for the student to master before the big "PSM debate"?
