M758

Mark,
The key is to make as much speed as possible around the corner. My concern any time you can ge on the gas right at turn in you may be giving up too much speed. Hard to say for sure, but it is often the case. Now taking a trail braking entry may also requre you to change you line and turn in point as well. Reason being that due to action of trail braking it changes the balance of the car and may allow or require a different turn in and apex points. You say you are G class racer. So to really understand what are the fast G guys doning at your tracks? If you are 2-3 seconds off their pace then they are doing something to be faster. Maybe it is trail braking on different line. If however you are the fast guy then you are probably doing things right.

MarkSchu

I think each corner/track has a "party" line. The person who gave me the "get on the gas quick" advice holds several track records. The track in question is very fast with really no threshold braking corners\that might require a lot of car rotation. I have heard that once you get the technique down for this track, your brake wear is actually neglible. Track in question is TWS in College Station, TX.

DJF1

It would scare me immensly to heavy trailbrake at turn 2 and 7. Both those turns are for sure early throttle. You could/should trailbrake at the carousel for sure.

Larry Herman

Then you are getting good advice, though remember that everyone's style is a little different (Alonzo goes as fast as Schumie with a very different style). Here is a description of no, gentle and then extreme trailbraking examples.

Summit Point is a fantastic track in terms of technique. There are 3 turns in succession that have 3 different styles. The first, wagon bend, a 3rd gear climbing turn requires that you get on the gas as you start to turn the wheel. The car will understeer for an instant, then catch the hill and hookup. If you have any rotation here at all, the car will want to spin when the front grabs.

The chute is a very fast (4th gear) downhill turn that in most cars requires a tap of the brakes and a slow turn of the wheel to get the front to bend in, and then right back on the floor and past the apex. You do not want any rotation here either, just smoothness and lots of grip.

The 2nd gear hairpin that immediately follows the chute is an extreme trailbrake turn where I am braking hard fully half way into the turn, and am counting on the car rotating to help it turn. At the exact right time, I have to get hard onto the power to stop the rotation and exit the turn. If done right, it is almost a controlled spin.

My point is that all advice should be turn specific.

penguinking

which car are you talking about where brake wear at THAT track is negligible? my car is reeeeeeeal hard on brakes there. probably moreso when run clockwise.

Veloce Raptor

TWS is very easy on brakes. Going CCW, the only relatively hard brake zones are T3, T10, and T13. All the rest are relatively easy, and the longish straights allow plenty of cooling. Going CW, the only really heavy brake zones are into T15, T10, and T6, but again, they are short, heavy brake zones, and not particularly brutal on brakes when done right.

My view is that the person who gets on the gas sooner, consistently corner after corner, is gonna win.

TD in DC

I think that the guy who gets through the corner (or more accurately, the combination of corners) faster is going to win.

In some corners, that will be the guy who gets on the gas faster. In other corners, it will be the guy who gets on the brakes later (or less).

It really depends upon the corner (or series of corners) as to what is faster. If you are able to get on the gas sooner merely because you slowed the car more than the next guy, you might well lose.

Veloce Raptor

Well, the assumption is that you are not overbraking.

Additionally, unless youu are fighting for position, late braking is not all that.

The fastest guys I know do their fastest laps (again, when not fighting for position) when they brake a little earlier and get back to power sooner...while the other guys are still on the brakes.

M758

Well in all my years of driving and instructing getting on the power sooner is wrong message to send most intermediate drivers. The problem is that most then overslow so that they can "get on the power sooner" rather than trying maintain their speed and THEN get on the power sooner.

It is really a balance as on the otherside of coin many first time novices try to carry too much speed and get on the power too late. The end result of overslowing with early power and carrying too much speed with late power is the same however... slow lap times. The trick is carry the right amount of speed to balance both of those. Interstingly this where trail braking can help since you can in many cases carry MORE speed into a corner and then use trail braking to rotate the car more than "normal" and thus get on the power sooner. Thus you do the elusive task of carring more speed into the corner AND get on the power sooner all at the same time. Nifty I'd say.

Larry's Explaination is a classic example of this fast-in, trail brake to overotate the car, and early power out. In most cases not trail braking resuts in either going off track or being way late on the power. The trail brake gives you the extra rotation needed to make the corner at higher speeds.

BTW... braking sooner does always mean you turn sooner too. That is the rub.. late apexing often uses later braking. In that case braking sooner overslows the car. However often time braking sooner can allow you to turn sooner, apex sooner and thus get on the power sooner and assuming you can keep the car on track get throught the corner faster. Now if you can be still braking after turn in you can in fact run faster lap times as most of the time the car's grip is not being fully used right after turn in.

TD in DC

I hate slowing down in my 944 so I try as hard as I can not to use my brakes. Of course, I also apparently hate the passenger side of my car.

Joe, you accurately described the perspective that led to my response.

TD

RedlineMan

My Ultimate Distillation;

You should either be on the brake, or the gas. If you are not, then you are slower than you could be.

OK... try to make that work? Yeh... that's the rub, eh?

mitch236

I used to think that too until I watched the Aussie super V-8 (or whatever it is called). They would show incar, pedal shots and these guys would often be off both gas and brake for part of the turn. That is another tool. choosing nothing is a choice! A good mantra is that there are no rules. You use whatever tools are available to get your car to do what you need it to do.

RedlineMan

Well, I didn't say it was a definite...

The theory I broached being that if you are off everything, assumedly waiting for the car to balance and/or just the right moment to get on the gas again, then you should be able to carry a little more speed and use the brakes to settle the car instead. It's a theory.

Z-man

1. In most cases the objective of a turn is to maximize the exit speed.

2. I believe it was forklift who said, "Late apex as early as possible." IE: keep moving your apex point up until you run out of trackout. (all the while keeping #1 in mind)

3. Number 1 and number 2 are accomplished by getting the start of the turn down properly. Sometimes that requires a little bit of trail braking. Sometimes it requires early braking / earlier throttle application - Look at Larry's fine example of the three turns at Summit Point.

They say, "Sometimes you have to go slow to go fast." Well, in this case, sometimes you have to look at the end of the turn in order to understand how to start it. Backward thinking. The trick is understanding what starting technique will maximize your exit speed.

Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.

SimonExtreme

Ready for the mad ramblings of the Brit!!!

Firstly, I believe you need to understand why trail braking works and why braking after turn in doesn't throw you straight off the track (although it can). As I see it, the basis is that when you turn in it takes time for the loads to build up so as to reach the maximum level of grip or slip angle you want. Until that point is reached, you can use that grip for other things, such as braking! So long as the braking forces + cornering forces don't exceed the maximum level of grip (allowing for slip angle), you are fine.

Therefore, I believe as a general rule, the more gentle the turn in, the more you can trail brake. In most cases, the corner determines the severity of the turn in and therefore the amount of time you can trail brake. It also follows that to get maximum benefit, modulating your braking as the loads build allow for change in attitude and slip so the car can be balanced.

Another factor is when and why you are using trail braking. Trail braking can be a very useful tool for overtaking BUT it can also be the worst defensive tool as well. If after the exit to a corner there is little chance to put thepower down and overtake (another corner coming up quickly) diving down the inside with agressive tail braking and the resultant slow exit speed is, IMO excelent. However, if there is a long straight coming up, exactly the same thing will mean you are passed again immediately or, if you have used it to preserve the inside line, it allows people to pass you on the next straight.

However, trail braking is just one technique. Getting on tghe power early also works, on the right corners.

I think this is nearly right but there are times when a feathered throttle is needed. I would rather say that if you are not using all of the grip available, you are not going as fast as you can and if you aren't using all the grip, that means you could be on either throttle or brake, whichever is more appropriate.

Finally, I would just like to comment on the "no power before the apex" debate.