track insurance
08-08-2006, 10:34 PM
#46
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"they are not licensed"....I'm fully insured by a LICENSED company on the street! I don't want to see IF they would pay for a DE accident, so I bought specific DE insurance for an UNLICENSED driving event, so WTF should I care, as long as they pay. Since I read that more posts report highly about them than 1 negative comment, repeated ad infinitum, if I might add, I'll look into them IF and When American Collector Insurance says NO MAS!
08-09-2006, 09:24 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by LouZ
I'll look into them IF and When American Collector Insurance says NO MAS!
Hi Mitch,
Your policy is good until your renewal (7/27/07). We most likely will not be able to renew your policy next year.
Best regards,
Orlando Morales
Driver's Education Insurance Program
Program Administrator
(856) 382-3213
Your policy is good until your renewal (7/27/07). We most likely will not be able to renew your policy next year.
Best regards,
Orlando Morales
Driver's Education Insurance Program
Program Administrator
(856) 382-3213
08-09-2006, 01:32 PM
#48
Banned
A couple of notes,
A few of you have asked me to "Edit" your posts in this thread. You may do so yourself by going to your post - and selecting this icon:
<-- in the bottom RIGHT HAND corner of your own post. It will open a text box to EDIT your own post. From there - you can delete the entire post text (replace your text with something like "deleted..." or whatever), or just re-phrase portions you would like. Since I didn't post your comments - I'm unsure of which portions/posts you'd like to keep or delete..?
Thanks...
Second - I just received an e-mail I was asked to post in public. please - do not shoot the messenger
To whom it may concern:
I am sending this email in hopes that you will post it. I am not signed up with Rennlist so I was unable to respond to the recent postings.
Dear Driver's Ed. Participants:
It is with great regret that American Collectors Insurance has closed it's Driver's Ed. Insurance Program. We made this decision
based on the fact that the demand for the coverage was low and our loss ration was too high. The low annual premium and claim severity is what drove the loss ratio well above acceptable limits.
For those of you who have a policy with us now, your policy will remain in effect until your renewal period and we will honor any claims that
occur until that time. We have been in the insurance business for 30 years and intend to hold true to our reputation as being a provider of great customer service. A letter will be sent to our existing policyholders as their renewal time approaches.
Thank you again and I wish you all good luck on the track. If you would like to send me your comments please send them to: orlando.m@americancollectors.com
Sincerely,
Orlando Morales
Driver's Education Insurance Program
Program Administrator
(856) 382-3213
A few of you have asked me to "Edit" your posts in this thread. You may do so yourself by going to your post - and selecting this icon:
<-- in the bottom RIGHT HAND corner of your own post. It will open a text box to EDIT your own post. From there - you can delete the entire post text (replace your text with something like "deleted..." or whatever), or just re-phrase portions you would like. Since I didn't post your comments - I'm unsure of which portions/posts you'd like to keep or delete..?Thanks...
Second - I just received an e-mail I was asked to post in public. please - do not shoot the messenger
To whom it may concern:
I am sending this email in hopes that you will post it. I am not signed up with Rennlist so I was unable to respond to the recent postings.
Dear Driver's Ed. Participants:
It is with great regret that American Collectors Insurance has closed it's Driver's Ed. Insurance Program. We made this decision
based on the fact that the demand for the coverage was low and our loss ration was too high. The low annual premium and claim severity is what drove the loss ratio well above acceptable limits.
For those of you who have a policy with us now, your policy will remain in effect until your renewal period and we will honor any claims that
occur until that time. We have been in the insurance business for 30 years and intend to hold true to our reputation as being a provider of great customer service. A letter will be sent to our existing policyholders as their renewal time approaches.
Thank you again and I wish you all good luck on the track. If you would like to send me your comments please send them to: orlando.m@americancollectors.com
Sincerely,
Orlando Morales
Driver's Education Insurance Program
Program Administrator
(856) 382-3213
08-09-2006, 05:44 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
Let me add that even though they are not writing new policies they will allow an addition to an existing policy. I just heard back from Orlando and my 964 will be covered at least until next year at this time. I can only hope something changes with their situation as I would rather pay *shudder* more premium to AC and keep them as my insurer...
08-10-2006, 11:09 AM
#50
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by LouZ
"they are not licensed"....I'm fully insured by a LICENSED company on the street! I don't want to see IF they would pay for a DE accident, so I bought specific DE insurance for an UNLICENSED driving event, so WTF should I care, as long as they pay. Since I read that more posts report highly about them than 1 negative comment, repeated ad infinitum, if I might add, I'll look into them IF and When American Collector Insurance says NO MAS!
Once again this is my $.02 so take it for what you think it is worth.
08-10-2006, 11:25 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
Seth That is a possible issue .You mention licensed companies do you know of any that are licensed that offer this kind of coverage since American Collectors is no longer offering their product ?
08-10-2006, 11:38 AM
#52
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Hi Seth
Yes, I agree that buying coverage from a licensed insurer is better than buying from one that is not. It gives the insured access to his or her own insurance department (and the threat of the access) who might intervene when or if the insurer is behaving badly on a claim. Experience of some track friends told us that DE drivers with an insurance complaint were way down the priority list for insurance regulators (whose opinions seemed to be 'why would you ever expect insurance to cover you on the track?').
The other issue relates to so-called 'insolvency' (insurance-ese for 'bankruptcy); a licensed and admitted (not so-called excess and surplus lines licensed insurers) insurer has to belong to a fund that pays some claims in the event the insurer is insolvent; a bit like the FDIC for banks.
Unfortunately, the regular licensed insurers don't seem to think there is profit to be made on DE physical damage insurance.
Hope this is of some use; I love DE and think that the question of insurance coverage can be a real disincentive for those that might want to participate.
Yes, I agree that buying coverage from a licensed insurer is better than buying from one that is not. It gives the insured access to his or her own insurance department (and the threat of the access) who might intervene when or if the insurer is behaving badly on a claim. Experience of some track friends told us that DE drivers with an insurance complaint were way down the priority list for insurance regulators (whose opinions seemed to be 'why would you ever expect insurance to cover you on the track?').
The other issue relates to so-called 'insolvency' (insurance-ese for 'bankruptcy); a licensed and admitted (not so-called excess and surplus lines licensed insurers) insurer has to belong to a fund that pays some claims in the event the insurer is insolvent; a bit like the FDIC for banks.
Unfortunately, the regular licensed insurers don't seem to think there is profit to be made on DE physical damage insurance.
Hope this is of some use; I love DE and think that the question of insurance coverage can be a real disincentive for those that might want to participate.
08-10-2006, 12:52 PM
#53
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I know this is a WAY simplistic strawman (just humor me as I sit in my office), but if we were to band together and form a self insured pool:
$500/yr average policy (ala AmColl) * 60 cars per DE * 100 venues across the country= 3 million dollars income (repeat drivers offsetting one time only drivers say).
6000 cars at an average 80% liability of $20K = $120 million if everybody totalled in the year. 40:1 exposure. How much reserve would you need? 100 million for 2-3 years?
I've seen 2 totals, and 3 benders personally this year. Maybe $100K at 80% payout. Ouch, and that's just me at 2 venues.
Assuming you could even get funding for a reserve (overhead, interest, reinsurance, bad investment climate notwithstanding), that sounds like a tough gig. What kind of return on investment? Could you get non-profit status? (Yeah right). Cooperative?
American Collectors rates (really reasonable vs. regular insurance rates) must've been a loss leader to be made up w/ rate hikes on new policies later. No new policies=oops.
What would you guys think a reasonable rate for the year on a $30K car? I have a 996 and was looking at ~$700. I was about to get insurance through AC. I had to think about if I was insured already (questionable), how many events am I really going to do. $700 was reasonable. $1400 was not. If I was tracking every weekend, then yeah, it would've been.
So if damage insurance was required for all cars, would you mind paying say $500 per weekend instead of $350?
If the Laurel basher gets his way (and maybe rightfully so if they stop behaving like an insurance company), then I don't know of anyone else who writes this type of insurance.
Gotta run
$500/yr average policy (ala AmColl) * 60 cars per DE * 100 venues across the country= 3 million dollars income (repeat drivers offsetting one time only drivers say).
6000 cars at an average 80% liability of $20K = $120 million if everybody totalled in the year. 40:1 exposure. How much reserve would you need? 100 million for 2-3 years?
I've seen 2 totals, and 3 benders personally this year. Maybe $100K at 80% payout. Ouch, and that's just me at 2 venues.
Assuming you could even get funding for a reserve (overhead, interest, reinsurance, bad investment climate notwithstanding), that sounds like a tough gig. What kind of return on investment? Could you get non-profit status? (Yeah right). Cooperative?
American Collectors rates (really reasonable vs. regular insurance rates) must've been a loss leader to be made up w/ rate hikes on new policies later. No new policies=oops.
What would you guys think a reasonable rate for the year on a $30K car? I have a 996 and was looking at ~$700. I was about to get insurance through AC. I had to think about if I was insured already (questionable), how many events am I really going to do. $700 was reasonable. $1400 was not. If I was tracking every weekend, then yeah, it would've been.
So if damage insurance was required for all cars, would you mind paying say $500 per weekend instead of $350?
If the Laurel basher gets his way (and maybe rightfully so if they stop behaving like an insurance company), then I don't know of anyone else who writes this type of insurance.
Gotta run
08-10-2006, 03:07 PM
#54
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Hi Dan
I like the way you think.
One issue for DE insurance is that not that many buyers carry special track insurance, so there isn't enough premium to cover the occasional big one + overhead and profit.
Another is that insurers are terrified of the so-called moral hazard ("I've got insurance so I can take more chances" is really, really dumb but plausible from an underwriter's standpoint).
What would work is that the clubs mandate physical damage coverage for all participants and build it into their registration fees. Set the premium at x% of the insured value and use a big deductible (as you suggested) to keep the moral hazard down. Frequent claimants would get the equivalent of the 13/13 rule in Club racing. Also, there are regulatory issues involved ('selling insurance without a license' would be a good start).
This of course would get a lot of people upset, but if it meant the survival of DE (not that its survival is in doubt), it would be worth it.
Of course, we have Laurel as a good alternative to dictatorial measures like mine.
I like the way you think.
One issue for DE insurance is that not that many buyers carry special track insurance, so there isn't enough premium to cover the occasional big one + overhead and profit.
Another is that insurers are terrified of the so-called moral hazard ("I've got insurance so I can take more chances" is really, really dumb but plausible from an underwriter's standpoint).
What would work is that the clubs mandate physical damage coverage for all participants and build it into their registration fees. Set the premium at x% of the insured value and use a big deductible (as you suggested) to keep the moral hazard down. Frequent claimants would get the equivalent of the 13/13 rule in Club racing. Also, there are regulatory issues involved ('selling insurance without a license' would be a good start).
This of course would get a lot of people upset, but if it meant the survival of DE (not that its survival is in doubt), it would be worth it.
Of course, we have Laurel as a good alternative to dictatorial measures like mine.
08-14-2006, 04:11 PM
#55
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If there is any sort of mandatory damage insurance fee included with DE fees then it should take into account the value of the car. A Carrera GT driver carries much greater monetary risk than a 1970s 911 driver. If that does not happen then guys with old track cars will be subsidising the risk of the megadollar exotics.
08-20-2006, 12:13 AM
#56
Just renewed
I just send it my cheque to American Collectors Insurance and they just cashed it so I'm covered. Orlando had sent me an email saying that existing policies can be renewed for another year but they aren't accepting new policies.
Anyone know how much LC charge? I pay 600 for 40k of cover with 20% deductible on my 99 996 C4.
Anyone know how much LC charge? I pay 600 for 40k of cover with 20% deductible on my 99 996 C4.
08-20-2006, 09:32 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
This is a great thread. I think local chapters of PCA should consider an entrance fee add-on of say 25.00 per registered day. This money would "pool" towards an unfortunate incident for club members. I think it should have a limit of 25 to 50K in coverage and be probationary after an incident for repeat offenders (or limit the deductable if car is not a total loss). I have also noticed a big commitment by some of our local shops to help out less knowledgeable drivers with car maintenance/ trailering at the track. I think a maintenance program for newbies should be offered more prominently also. In the past five years, I have seen a decent number of accidents, most of which were driver error (fatigue, track conditions). I think our programs are very safe compared to say public laps at the Nurburgring where I see a season worth of accidents in one day.
08-20-2006, 10:41 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Bob, with respect, I do not think ANY chapter of PCA or any car club should get into the insurance business. It creates all sorts of precedents that no club could ever fulfil financially, and gives yet another lawsuit target for the ambulance chasers.
JMHO...
JMHO...
08-20-2006, 03:42 PM
#59
Originally Posted by VB997
Matt,
I renewed my policy with Laurel last week, so I know they are still in the business. Dave Empringham (racer) is the rep...great guy, extremely responsive.
I renewed my policy with Laurel last week, so I know they are still in the business. Dave Empringham (racer) is the rep...great guy, extremely responsive.
With Laurel since '04. BTW, they offer racer's ins. too. Of course the premiums are quite a bit more expensive than D.E.
