TD. Bummer. Larry hit the nail on the head. I noticed consistently your not letting the wheel out enough and may want to work on your exit with someone.(this is being pretty critical, but with the speeds your carrying real important). Sometimes after track out your still pinched. I do not agree with Steve about the toe at all. I thought your line was fine up the hill in the boot and you were catching most traffic there. Outer loop looks really good. Into the laces it seems your unsure of where to turn in and it was not consistent lap to lap. Leading to the incident, you came out of 9 really well, maybe +2,3mph from your prior lap and no traffic. Started moving over early and as the car started to rotate, you did not feed the wheel or peddle a little . I think your doing a really good job, bummer to pick up some dents. Hope the Mrs. is not lecturing you as you read this. That turn catches alot of drivers. My wife last year scared the &^$&%^& out of club racer riding shotgun with her when she would take T10 at 105mph +, no lift, in her Boxster S. He actually asked her to "tap" the brakes because his car "can't do that" (RSA). BTW he shunted in a club race there a couple of years ago, so you just joined the club.

 

Todd is on the righteous path, and has just reached a major milestone. It was tough to see it happen, but it was great to see Kurt M straighten out the 70 degree bend in the RH tie rod and string align the car back to track ready. No, it was better to see Todd whaling on the recalcitrant bodywork with a mallet for a good hour or so, and getting back on the track.

The turn-in looked early on video, no question. The margin for error in T10 is diminishingly small. That's two sentences, which hardly do it justice, right?

That said, he's got the right stuff.

 

Thanks John, Prof, Mark, Tony, Jim, Bob and Bob. I appreciate both the criticism and support. Sadly, Mark, I have already taken the Skippy advanced car control class. It was awesome. Maybe I should go back

With all of my time constraints, I try to suck the marrow out of every DE. Despite the irony of what I am about to say given my off, I am the furthest thing from reckless (nice wordplay if I do say so myself ). I can repeat the ideal DE line at will, as well as all of the safe techniques.

Right now, though, I am experimenting with different lines and techniques in an effort to get fast(er). That is one of the things that my current videos reflect. Someday, I want to be the guy showing the rest of you guys the back of my car

Here is what I am trying to understand right now. I can open the wheel and drive to track out at will. But, if you can do that, doesn't it mean that you are leaving something on the table in the turn? Honestly, if you are not fighting to keep the car on the track at the track out point (and I am not talking about extreme slip angles or throwing the car around), aren't you leaving time on the table?

How do you get the most out of a turn safely and methodically? My approach has been to start using a late turn in and late apex and lower speed. I then pick up the speed as much as I can before I start having problems at turn in. Then, I start turning in earlier while maintaining the same apex. If I still make track out, then I try a little bit earlier on the next lap. Isn't it normal to be struggling a little throughout the turn if you are near the limit? I mean, it is really easy to take a turn at 8/10. At that pace, you can open the wheel all day with no problem. All the work comes in the last 2/10s, and that is what separates the fast guys from the really good solid drivers. Any suggestions on how to approach this issue? THIS is what I have been experimenting with, and, as you can see, pushed too far this one time. I rarely have offs, and my goal is to be in 100% control at all times (many of those who know me best tease me for being so conservative), so please do not misinterpret my learning efforts.

The fact that I did not open the wheel soon enough during my off had nothing whatsoever to do with me being afraid of running out of track. I never made it that far. Track out was the last thing on my mind. Rather, I didn't open the wheel in a mistaken attempt not to upset the car since it was not rotating. I opened the wheel as soon as the rear started to come out, which was obviously too late. I should have opened the wheel as soon as the drift started. Truth be told, though, I have never before experienced one type loss of traction convert into another. Talk about a new miserable experience

Edit: Thanks for the kind words Tony. Much appreciated.

 

Todd, there is one other component to cornering, especially with a low hp car, and that is tire scrub. I learned that a long time ago in my 100 hp 914. You can maximize your cornering forces all you want, but if you are scrubbing off acceleration in your attempt to do so, then you are losing speed. The minor amount of G loading that you give up by unwinding the wheel a little may be more than compensated for by increased acceleration. Think about it.

 

Hey TD,

Sorry to hear, glad you are ok. Hope to see you at SPR at the July and/or Aug. Potomac DE.

I know my time is probably coming, hopefully it will be a while though. The RA-1s I ran last weekend have to be very, very close to cording. I think I will run my other set in two weeks and retire those.

Let me know if I can help w/ anything.

Jim

 

Larry nailed it. You were not too early, you just didn't use all the track. You had at least 10 feet on the outside to use. Had you unwound, you would have been fine. I actually like your line, as it is the race (aka fast) place to be. Your line in the carousel & toe also look very good. You could stuff it in a bit earlier in the off camber though (apex it sooner, and dive in earlier under braking).


Again, Larry has the right advice.

Now quit screwing around and come racing! (was that civil enough ).

 

the wide rack out is flat to off camber and a bit lumpy and slippy at track out. I found that I was able to keep better exit RPMs in tghis one by driving in full power from the previous track out, no brakes no lift, and keeping it on the concrete untill just before track out. In fact the inner portion of the patch is far gripper than the outside and I was flat out every time by coming in and getting more than 50% of the turn done by apex then floating out by opening the wheel and not power drifting as I do in other turns. This way I was able to stay full power and use the better part of the track, not have the car loadded up over the crappy parts. Slightly higer shorter G load but where it was able to be done and moved away from a poorer section of surface. Nothing radical just a little bit like a foot or two later than our buddy Todd J Mitchner (YMMV I have way low hp, low tech susp, high stick tires)

 

Listen to Sensei Larry on both counts, he is spot on. Even MY rookie eye could see the early entry into 10 and the pinch at the end. I start my turn at about the 100' mark (in a 911 tho) and always end up unwinding all the way out to the curb. It makes a natural flow left back into position for 11. I also use 3rd gear more (5-3 at busstop - 4-3 at laces, toe, heel (stay in 3rd for T9, 4th flat with quick lift on through T10, 4-3 T11) but maybe it's the differences in cars that facilitates that. I also try (read that *need*) to stay above 4K RPMS at all times.

Great attitude, get her fixed up and back out there!

 

TD,

Thanks for sharing and reading all the comments and instruction makes me continue to realize how little I know and how much I need to learn/practice about performance driving.

Glad you are OK and are getting back on the 'horse'. See you at the track and in Black. Plan to give me a tour of your car next time we are there together.

-Skip

 

Quoted to clarify the following;

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just trying to make sure a vital point is cemented. No hate mail, please.

I bring up Larry's quote because he did not say it as you attributed it, Colin. In my opinion (and that of others far more epxerienced than I) Todd DID indeed turn far too early, and therefore apexed far too early. I am speaking specifically about the turn in portion, and I did not want that point to be mitigated by this statement.

Turning in is something rather seperate from what was done after the apex. The turn was thrown away BEFORE the apex. It was not salvaged after it (and salvation may not have been possible in that case). These are two different areas for discussion.

As I always point out, Turn 10 is perhaps the most underated turn at the Glen in terms of the potential for an off. If you plan to try it at very high speed, you better treat it with respect and be on your toes. Turning in early is NOT something I would ever do here. I am always telling myself to "wait, wait, wait... NOW!" Now usually comes at around 100'

As I mentioned, there are many turns where "early turn in" works, and is actually necessary. If you feel like you are going to fly off the road at turn in using some form of DE late turn approach, then you do indeed need to turn earlier so that you can "late apex earlier." turn 10 will never be one of those turns for most cars in my opinion. Certainly not for a low power 944NA.

It may work for super rocket or heavy tail dragging cars, but not for us slow pokes. Not in my estimation.

 

I think that there may be two issues going on here that I don't understand completely, which is why I am asking rather than telling.

First, I can accept that I was early. I am not sure that I agree that I was way way early, but that may depend upon someone's sense of how much counts as "way" early. The closer you get to the limit, the less you need to be off to have a problem. It doesn't bother me to hear that I was early. I was experimenting, and I learned a tough lesson from my experiment. At least I am learning something. I still cringe when I hear that it was way, way too early. How early is too early? If I make it through a turn with a line that is earlier than everyone else, then was I too early? I promise you that during the last run on the previous day, I was taking that turn flat out, and my line was not too much later than the fatal one (although it was a little later). My car felt great, and I went through the corner extremely quickly. Could it be that I was too early there even though I was fast and made it through without any sliding? If not, then I can't see how this time was way, way too early. Early? Yes. Way, way early? Maybe, but tough to hear. (I am listening though).

Second, I think that people may be using the term "pinch" differently than I understand it, or that I understand the term differently than others are using it. For example, there are different ways to muff a turn. The most traditional way, I would think, would be too turn in too early, apex too early, realize that you are going to run out of track at track out, think to yourself "oh crap, I am going to wreck" and then consciously, or even subconsciously, increase your steering input to avoid that result, which will cause you to spin. I have always understood that to be "pinching" the turn. I assure you that I did NOT do this. I was never worried about track out. I placed the car where I wanted to place it, so I did not "perceive" my placement as a mistake, and I never made it close enough to track out to even start to worry about running out of track. As Colin accurately observed, I started to rotate well before I even got close to the track edge. My error was in failing to open the wheel soon enough (as opposed to closing it more out of fear). When I went into the four wheel NEUTRAL drift right at the apex, my thought to myself was "careful, careful, do not upset the car with any abrupt changes here . . . you steering input will help you scrub off speed and you will hook back up again with a little less speed." In other words, I conciously made no changes (see the two pictures I attached where you see that I simply didn't change my steering input that I had to enter the turn during the slide). Obviously this was a mistake, but it was not a mistake borne of fear. It was misjudgment borne out of lack of experience in dealing with very high speed skids/spins (I am fine with low and medium speed). When the rear did start to come around, I immediately opened the wheel. You can tell on my video exactly where the rear started rotating by the moment I opened the wheel. It was simply too late. If you guys mean that I "pinched" the turn by failing to open the wheel sufficiently and early enough, I agree 100%. If you mean that I "pinched" the turn by increasing my steering input out of fear that I would run out of track, I disagree. That is not what happened.

In any event, I am listening to everyone's comments and I seriously appreciate the feedback and encouragement. Thanks Jim, Kurt, Colin, Larry, Skip, John, and Gary.

One thing I was thinking about is that I have had several other instructors wanting to ride with me over the last few events since I got promoted to black. They have been very gracious and complimentary. I wonder if I am still going to have a line for my passenger seat now that I have posted this video!!!!

BTW, the second picture was snapped the moment before I felt the rear come around and I opened the wheel in response to the rotation. You can see that my rear wheels are just about to exit the concrete patch, which I think was a big contributor to the change from a neutral drift to a rotation.

 

I'll ride with you Todd, and I guarantee that you will hear "YOU'RE TOO EFFIN EARLY" in your right ear way before the apex if I feel that it's needed!

To clarify my observations, I feel that you were just a little too early, not horribly so. Secondly, if you tighten the steering as you exit the turn, or even just hold it steady, the net effect is the same; you are overloading your rear tires and are risking a spin. Either way, most refer to this as "pinching the corner".

 

TD -

What this very inexperienced driver meant by "pinched" was that you didn't seem to unwind the wheel (enough) after apexing the corner and it looked like the front end continued to track left on exit and the rear tracked right... I don't think you had an "oh crap" moment, just that you held the turn a tad long for your positioning.

I wouldn't worry about instructors, you would be a sought after student with the attitude you have..

and Larry drives AND types a LOT faster than me!

 

Thanks Larry and Gary. With that understanding of pinching the corner, then yes, I did pinch the corner, even by my own initial description.

The irony is that I always dial it back when I have a passenger. I would never have experimented like that with someone in the passenger seat. I think I have yet to scare anyone who has ridden with me, with the exception, perhaps, of Dirk D., which I did on purpose

 

You just described exactly what happens in the downhill at Limerock at every other DE held there...