ltc

I have to admit, it was much easier coming up to speed (granted, in a stock car on street tires) without having to think about shifting/downshifting.
I also saw that Champ Cars are going to paddle shifters, like F1.

I do enjoy the lifelong challenge of the perfect downshift/rev match, but for being able to just 'drive the line fast'.....the paddle shifters were impressive.

SimonExtreme

I know you won't believe me but I was talking it through with an ex F3000 driver This is him as I typed and we both feel rather stupid (where is the blushing smiley when you need it!). It is, of course, exactly the opposite effect to the one I commented on

We got carried away! Sorry! However, the key point was that this is about feel. I believe that I know where to change gear because I have done it many times and I am sure that Kristian did it intuitively as well.

Once again, sorry for the silly mistake. Got carried away about a subject I am passionate about.

Larry Herman

Simon, are you presenting your theories for our critique, or are you posting them as expert commentary? If the former, and that is fine because this forum is all about an exchange of questions and ideas, there are a few things that you are missing. If the latter, then who are you, and what have you done?

ed: Just saw your post above. If you are espousing theories from someone else, let us know too, as sometimes they do not make it through translation (as you just found out).

SimonExtreme

I have already apologised for posting too quickly without proof reading and checking. I had already started writing when a friend (ex F3000 driver came over and we talked about it quickly, I finished typing and posted without thinking. I admit, to my embaracement, I should have thought twice, posted once!

I was not posting somebody elses views, although I did talk about them and as you can see, as soon as it was pointed out there was a problem I apologised and held my hand up to it etc.

As for myself, I never intended that my comments were telling but putting forward a view, primarily that teaching track driving (which I have never done) should be about teaching feel and mechanical sympathy rather than teaching people to do things by numbers. I may not have taught, but I have been taught by a lot of people. Compared with many who race (or who have raced) I am a great believer in coacxhing and learning. It still amazes me that mototsport is just about the only sport where there is very little by way of instruction for all but the beginner. How many F1, Indi, or any other top class drivers use or have coaches? None. But where would Tiger Woods be without a coach, or for that matter any other major sports star.

As for myself, I am a has been racer who hasn't held a race licence for nearly 20 years. However, my last licence was an International "C". I raced both single seater and tin tops both in the UK and Europe. I was never good enough to win anything worthwhile, but would say I was top 1/3rd of anything I raced.

I have had one "competitive" outing in my 964RS and that was on street tyres and was the first time I had driven any Porsche other than on streets! It was a PCGB day of 964RS vs 993RS with 3 events.

1. Fastest around a set out corner without running out of wall

2. Short course "Gymkahna" style course

3. 1.5 mile sprint style handling course.

On street tyres (most others on MCPS or similar) I was equal 1st in event 1. In event 2 I won with a time 1.5 secs quicker the next best (in 34.52 secs) and the last event I came 3rd with the best 964RS time, 4 secs quicker than the next best 64RS (1.09.5 mins).

Only problem is, we have an aircooled RS Vs GT3 day coming up and everybody tells me I am the defending champ! I have just bought some very sticky tyres

I only post that stuff not by way of bragging, because I know at the level I drive there is always somebody quicker, but to show I am not a mug behind the wheel of a car and can peddle a 911 reasonably well. I have a total passion for driving and driving quickly and am always willing to share and discuss experiences.

All this probably means I should have been a bit more careful in my post and as I have said above, I am sorry for going off half **** and I hope that an admission and apology will stop me being totally flamed. It would be easier to either bluff it out (what most seem to do on the net) or just ignore totally.

Veloce Raptor

Hey, small world, Simon. I currently hold a "B" license!

Larry Herman

Let me be the first then, to welcome you to this forum. Although there are a few pretenders who lurk here, and they do get flamed sometimes, everyone is quite upfront about their abilities and knowledge and that is what makes this such a great forum. The main thing is to accurately convey the experiences that you have had, or state that it is spectulation on your part. Both will get you respect. And don't worry about a little bragging. If that gets you flamed, my butt would be a bon-fire.

SimonExtreme

As I said, I haven't held a licence for a long, long time! The better you get, the more it costs and my (now ex) wife felt I was spending too much. In addition, my true love has always been small sailboat racing (dinghies) and I was far better at that. It is also a lot cheaper, or at least that is what I tell my wife

Having not raced for so long, I think I probably get more pleasure out of my car today on a few trackdays and such like than I ever got racing. When it is no longer important, and the unrealistic ambition is no longer forcing testosterone through the body, it all seems so much more fun! The other thing is being able to drive on a track without having a masive bank loan weighing me down!

Veloce Raptor

How very true.

Where do you live? Europe?

bobt993

Simon, why do you state that F1 drivers do not have coaches? I believe this is entirely not true. Since we have some very accomplished drivers in and moved on from our club, where do you think Vic Elford, Jackie Stewart and other champs earn their rent?

Z-man

Ross Bentley has coached and still coaches many near top-tier drivers. As does David Murray and even Hurley Haywood. BTW: Haywood has a personal trainer/coach himself. And all racing schools offer personal coaching - Bondurant, Skippy school, Betril Roos...etc.

In this day and age, I don't think there's a single pro motorsport athlete that doesn't have a coach - be it F1, Indy/Cart, Speed World Challenge, Rally, Grand Am, ALMS...etc. Granted, motorsports is one of the last venues where coaching has come into play, but I believe coaching is being used vastly through all levels.

-Z-man.

brucegre

Hmm, it's been a long summer away from the forum, but this one caught my attention.

Sunday, der Prof and Bob were all pretty polite in their response - my initial reaction was "that's f'ing nuts!" I mean, really, that sounds like "friends" you don't need trying to get you killed. Upshifts in corners are scary enough (right Bob?) but downshifting at an apex is just flat out stupid. Not to say that the need doesn't arrive sometimes as events unfold, but as a technique to go fast, forget it. Heel and toe well done means the clutch doesn't feel a thing, and the car is way easier to balance when you aren't doing something silly mid-corner to upset it.

Just my opinion, but sheesh, sometimes I just shake my head in wonder.

Bruce

SimonExtreme

In a radio interview last Saturday, Jackie Stewart denied coaching F1 drivers and but admitted to giving informal advice very occasionally. He was then highly critical of F1 drivers over this issue, citing the examples of top golfers, tennis players and other sports people as evidence of top sports people relying on coaches. He accused the majority of F1 drivers to be too arogant to accept help and stated he wished he had been coached when he entered F1. In fact, he claimed that every year he was in F1 he learnt more as he was able to understand more with experienec.

The interviewer suggested that as there were so many people in a team and so much data, that maybe coaches weren't needed as the support was there. JS said that data isn't enough, its what you do with that data.

Until that interview, I believed that Jackie Stewart did coach F1 drivers. Now, maybe he was just punting for business but I tend to believe most of what he says.

Veloce Raptor

Yup. I do a lot of coaching of both pro & club racers. Doing so has improved my driving as well. In addition, because I am not quite as good as David Murray or Hurley Haywood, I have also occasionally sought coaching, to work on specific flaws in my driving. And a LOT of racers I know do both.

SimonExtreme

Must fill in my profile! I am based in London where I don't drive my 964RS! Any trip outside of London and its the only way to travel but a 964RS, with race pads and all the bits is not ideal for London traffic where the speed average is 11mph!

Just a comment on many of the posts above. It does seem that in the US, there is far more racecraft coaching than over here in Europe. It may be something to do with the American mentality vs British. Being British means doing it oneself, stiff upper lip and all that old colonial attitude. I have seen it in other sports as well and in particular, with golf. In the UK it is impossible to "brand" a golf pro guru and charge any extra or build a business. A good friend of mine, who coaches well known tour pros, has established more of a business in 9 months in the US than he managed in 5 years in the UK. And he is good, has an award winning book which is a best seller. In the UK, he couldn't make a living just coaching. In the US, he is turning away clients!

MarkSchu

My .02, straight from the skip barber book and course: brake, clutch in, blip (yunga), next gear, clutch out, look in, turn in (usually with trail brake), smooth transition from brake to power, apex, track out, check tach for exit speed. The key is to do this in a rhythm to maintain balance of the car, something as a newbie I am desperately practicing. I am sure pros can downshift anywhere they need to, but not sure why you would want to downshift in the turn....you would have to be a pretty good blipper to not upset the car, plus you want to be accelerating as soon as possible. Downshifting after the brake zone would seem to delay this.