Brake-downshift-turn or Brake-turn-downshift
#31
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I have to admit, it was much easier coming up to speed (granted, in a stock car on street tires) without having to think about shifting/downshifting.
I also saw that Champ Cars are going to paddle shifters, like F1.
I do enjoy the lifelong challenge of the perfect downshift/rev match, but for being able to just 'drive the line fast'.....the paddle shifters were impressive.
I also saw that Champ Cars are going to paddle shifters, like F1.
I do enjoy the lifelong challenge of the perfect downshift/rev match, but for being able to just 'drive the line fast'.....the paddle shifters were impressive.
#32
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Originally Posted by kurt M
I think you might have some of your info a little confused such as the the blip for RPM match paragraph.
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We got carried away! Sorry! However, the key point was that this is about feel. I believe that I know where to change gear because I have done it many times and I am sure that Kristian did it intuitively as well.
Once again, sorry for the silly mistake. Got carried away about a subject I am passionate about.
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#33
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
A lot of comments and at least everybody is consistant nwith the fact that you shift while still in a straight lien, before turn in, unless it is an unusual corner. However, there are a few misnomers on this thread that I would like to challenge.<snip>
ed: Just saw your post above. If you are espousing theories from someone else, let us know too, as sometimes they do not make it through translation (as you just found out).
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#34
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Simon, are you presenting your theories for our critique, or are you posting them as expert commentary? If the former, and that is fine because this forum is all about an exchange of questions and ideas, there are a few things that you are missing. If the latter, then who are you, and what have you done?
ed: Just saw your post above. If you are espousing theories from someone else, let us know too, as sometimes they do not make it through translation (as you just found out).![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
ed: Just saw your post above. If you are espousing theories from someone else, let us know too, as sometimes they do not make it through translation (as you just found out).
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I was not posting somebody elses views, although I did talk about them and as you can see, as soon as it was pointed out there was a problem I apologised and held my hand up to it etc.
As for myself, I never intended that my comments were telling but putting forward a view, primarily that teaching track driving (which I have never done) should be about teaching feel and mechanical sympathy rather than teaching people to do things by numbers. I may not have taught, but I have been taught by a lot of people. Compared with many who race (or who have raced) I am a great believer in coacxhing and learning. It still amazes me that mototsport is just about the only sport where there is very little by way of instruction for all but the beginner. How many F1, Indi, or any other top class drivers use or have coaches? None. But where would Tiger Woods be without a coach, or for that matter any other major sports star.
As for myself, I am a has been racer who hasn't held a race licence for nearly 20 years. However, my last licence was an International "C". I raced both single seater and tin tops both in the UK and Europe. I was never good enough to win anything worthwhile, but would say I was top 1/3rd of anything I raced.
I have had one "competitive" outing in my 964RS and that was on street tyres and was the first time I had driven any Porsche other than on streets! It was a PCGB day of 964RS vs 993RS with 3 events.
1. Fastest around a set out corner without running out of wall
2. Short course "Gymkahna" style course
3. 1.5 mile sprint style handling course.
On street tyres (most others on MCPS or similar) I was equal 1st in event 1. In event 2 I won with a time 1.5 secs quicker the next best (in 34.52 secs) and the last event I came 3rd with the best 964RS time, 4 secs quicker than the next best 64RS (1.09.5 mins).
Only problem is, we have an aircooled RS Vs GT3 day coming up and everybody tells me I am the defending champ! I have just bought some very sticky tyres
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I only post that stuff not by way of bragging, because I know at the level I drive there is always somebody quicker, but to show I am not a mug behind the wheel of a car and can peddle a 911 reasonably well. I have a total passion for driving and driving quickly and am always willing to share and discuss experiences.
All this probably means I should have been a bit more careful in my post and as I have said above, I am sorry for going off half **** and I hope that an admission and apology will stop me being totally flamed. It would be easier to either bluff it out (what most seem to do on the net) or just ignore totally.
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#36
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
I only post that stuff not by way of bragging, because I know at the level I drive there is always somebody quicker, but to show I am not a mug behind the wheel of a car and can peddle a 911 reasonably well. I have a total passion for driving and driving quickly and am always willing to share and discuss experiences.
All this probably means I should have been a bit more careful in my post and as I have said above, I am sorry for going off half **** and I hope that an admission and apology will stop me being totally flamed. It would be easier to either bluff it out (what most seem to do on the net) or just ignore totally.![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
All this probably means I should have been a bit more careful in my post and as I have said above, I am sorry for going off half **** and I hope that an admission and apology will stop me being totally flamed. It would be easier to either bluff it out (what most seem to do on the net) or just ignore totally.
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#37
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
Hey, small world, Simon. I currently hold a "B" license!
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Having not raced for so long, I think I probably get more pleasure out of my car today on a few trackdays and such like than I ever got racing. When it is no longer important, and the unrealistic ambition is no longer forcing testosterone through the body, it all seems so much more fun! The other thing is being able to drive on a track without having a masive bank loan weighing me down!
#39
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Simon, why do you state that F1 drivers do not have coaches? I believe this is entirely not true. Since we have some very accomplished drivers in and moved on from our club, where do you think Vic Elford, Jackie Stewart and other champs earn their rent?
#40
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Ross Bentley has coached and still coaches many near top-tier drivers. As does David Murray and even Hurley Haywood. BTW: Haywood has a personal trainer/coach himself. And all racing schools offer personal coaching - Bondurant, Skippy school, Betril Roos...etc.
In this day and age, I don't think there's a single pro motorsport athlete that doesn't have a coach - be it F1, Indy/Cart, Speed World Challenge, Rally, Grand Am, ALMS...etc. Granted, motorsports is one of the last venues where coaching has come into play, but I believe coaching is being used vastly through all levels.
-Z-man.
In this day and age, I don't think there's a single pro motorsport athlete that doesn't have a coach - be it F1, Indy/Cart, Speed World Challenge, Rally, Grand Am, ALMS...etc. Granted, motorsports is one of the last venues where coaching has come into play, but I believe coaching is being used vastly through all levels.
-Z-man.
#41
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Hmm, it's been a long summer away from the forum, but this one caught my attention.
Sunday, der Prof and Bob were all pretty polite in their response - my initial reaction was "that's f'ing nuts!" I mean, really, that sounds like "friends" you don't need trying to get you killed. Upshifts in corners are scary enough (right Bob?) but downshifting at an apex is just flat out stupid. Not to say that the need doesn't arrive sometimes as events unfold, but as a technique to go fast, forget it. Heel and toe well done means the clutch doesn't feel a thing, and the car is way easier to balance when you aren't doing something silly mid-corner to upset it.
Just my opinion, but sheesh, sometimes I just shake my head in wonder.
Bruce
Sunday, der Prof and Bob were all pretty polite in their response - my initial reaction was "that's f'ing nuts!" I mean, really, that sounds like "friends" you don't need trying to get you killed. Upshifts in corners are scary enough (right Bob?) but downshifting at an apex is just flat out stupid. Not to say that the need doesn't arrive sometimes as events unfold, but as a technique to go fast, forget it. Heel and toe well done means the clutch doesn't feel a thing, and the car is way easier to balance when you aren't doing something silly mid-corner to upset it.
Just my opinion, but sheesh, sometimes I just shake my head in wonder.
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Bruce
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Originally Posted by bobt993
Simon, why do you state that F1 drivers do not have coaches? I believe this is entirely not true. Since we have some very accomplished drivers in and moved on from our club, where do you think Vic Elford, Jackie Stewart and other champs earn their rent?
The interviewer suggested that as there were so many people in a team and so much data, that maybe coaches weren't needed as the support was there. JS said that data isn't enough, its what you do with that data.
Until that interview, I believed that Jackie Stewart did coach F1 drivers. Now, maybe he was just punting for business but I tend to believe most of what he says.
#43
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Originally Posted by Z-man
Ross Bentley has coached and still coaches many near top-tier drivers. As does David Murray and even Hurley Haywood. BTW: Haywood has a personal trainer/coach himself. And all racing schools offer personal coaching - Bondurant, Skippy school, Betril Roos...etc.
In this day and age, I don't think there's a single pro motorsport athlete that doesn't have a coach - be it F1, Indy/Cart, Speed World Challenge, Rally, Grand Am, ALMS...etc. Granted, motorsports is one of the last venues where coaching has come into play, but I believe coaching is being used vastly through all levels.
-Z-man.
In this day and age, I don't think there's a single pro motorsport athlete that doesn't have a coach - be it F1, Indy/Cart, Speed World Challenge, Rally, Grand Am, ALMS...etc. Granted, motorsports is one of the last venues where coaching has come into play, but I believe coaching is being used vastly through all levels.
-Z-man.
#44
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
How very true.
Where do you live? Europe?
Where do you live? Europe?
Just a comment on many of the posts above. It does seem that in the US, there is far more racecraft coaching than over here in Europe. It may be something to do with the American mentality vs British. Being British means doing it oneself, stiff upper lip and all that old colonial attitude. I have seen it in other sports as well and in particular, with golf. In the UK it is impossible to "brand" a golf pro guru and charge any extra or build a business. A good friend of mine, who coaches well known tour pros, has established more of a business in 9 months in the US than he managed in 5 years in the UK. And he is good, has an award winning book which is a best seller. In the UK, he couldn't make a living just coaching. In the US, he is turning away clients!
#45
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My .02, straight from the skip barber book and course: brake, clutch in, blip (yunga), next gear, clutch out, look in, turn in (usually with trail brake), smooth transition from brake to power, apex, track out, check tach for exit speed. The key is to do this in a rhythm to maintain balance of the car, something as a newbie I am desperately practicing. I am sure pros can downshift anywhere they need to, but not sure why you would want to downshift in the turn....you would have to be a pretty good blipper to not upset the car, plus you want to be accelerating as soon as possible. Downshifting after the brake zone would seem to delay this.