ltc

Interesting little discussion from Peter Windsor on pit lane during qualifying regarding a potential limit for the current F1 V8 engine.

Apparently at 20K rpm the gas flow is near supersonic as it approaches the pistons via the intake, thus posing a barrier to further RPM developments.

Hard to imagine air approaching the speed of sound in an engine intake.....definitely cool stuff.

smlporsche

I heard that too this AM.
That's really impressive!!

Willard Bridgham 3

Some engine designer will figure out how to harness the energy of the shock wave of supersonic flow.....increase pressure, increase atomization, increase temperature.......

Make standing near the track or in the pits a little unpleasant for the ears.........

95m3racer

It'll hopefully get a nice helping hand of devleopment from FSAE teams. With the 20mm restrictor, there are choke points and similar issues with approaching almost a physical limit of what kind of power the motors can make. There are dozens and dozens of the best engineers[ students and thier Prof's] currently conducting research projects on this topic. How to get the most power off a restricted motor...should be interested how F1 teams deal with it...i'm sure they are already working on it

OriginalSterm

Would direct injection help? Or is the window for the fuel injector to actually be open so short at 20k RPM that it won't allow enough flow?

f1rocks

Flow problems not withstanding....

The piston speed is also very near the edge of capability also. Once you get camless (electronic valves) the valve train can go way over 25K but according to a piston manufacturer who did some custom work for Honda, they are having trouble getting the pistons much faster than 21,000 RPM's. I saw some of his pistons, they were truly a work of art.

So much for limiting cost with a V-8 motor.

RayGT3

The 20K limit has been around for a while, the old 20 cyl. Honda Indy cars of yesteryear were subject to this limitation. To get around this we need a change in materials, maybe lighter stronger ceramic composit pistons and rods. Maybe get away from pistons all together. There will always be someone pushing the limits, thats progress.

Todsimpson

Who said V8's were to limit costs? They were manadated to limit performance.

tdf360

So why didn't they just go with intake restrictors for the whole field like the Toro Rosso guys use? They'd be bullet-proof by comparison, and obviously much cheaper, since all the teams already had them.

Gary

f1rocks

Bernie and Max have been yapping their pie holes about cost for years...there have been numerous quips about the engine changes, tires etc... all for the cost issues in running a competitive team.

Todsimpson

I've seen all the commentary about how the V8's haven't reduced cost, but I've never seen official confirmation that V8's were supposed to do that. Even the FIA has to realize requiring all the teams to design completely new engines doesn't reduce cost.

Gary-Great question, and I think that makes my point. Rev limits would have accomplished both goals for virtually no money.

95m3racer

There was an FSAE team that had a 600cc fully scratch built V8, running 22000rpm. I do not think it was ever raced with, but it was in thier research program, along with a fully composite engine and a plastic engine...