mitch236

Here's the problem as I see it. Most DE guys run with many different clubs without the open passing. Now they are out with NASA (or any other club that allows open passing) and they forget that someone can pass them in the corner and so they don't check the mirrors prior to turn in and cause contact. Passing in corners is a new skill for many in DE since the teaching in DE is that once you get into the brake zone, you should look straight ahead and not in the mirrors because nobody is supposed to be passing you there. I think if you want open passing without point by's you should be racing. There really is very little difference at that point anyway, might as well be racing.

There is a reason that racing require so much safety equipment and any track session that allows open passing without a point by without proper safety equipment is flirting with disaster.

M758

Mitch, That sounds like someone who has never raced. I don't agree with that one bit.


What sets racing apart for open passing is in racing the guy infront is not going to simply let you pass. The guy front will try his hardest to keep you back. And of course the guy in back is trying like stink to get around you.

Racing = Contesting the corners
Open passing = NO CONTESTING the corners.

That is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.


In open passing with no point bys the goal is not racing. That means if someone sticks their nose under you in a corner you simply give them the corner. There is no arguing about whose corner it is.

There are many many times it is MUCH SAFER to pass WITHOUT a signal. Reason is mostly when you have cars of different speeds. I can't tell you how many times it is easr to know a car will pass I don't need to point. Pointing requires me to take my hand off the wheel and point rather than just giving a bit of room for the other car. Also as a passing car waiting for point can be problematic as it may not allow you pass where you have the greatest advantage over the other car and thus could make the safest pass.

As a passing car in these sessions you also need to exhibit the patience to make safe high percentage passes. You are not racing so no need to take risk. When both drivers have this attitude the open passing becomes rather safe. Plus it is great practice for racing as you quickly get comfortable with cars all over the place and being off line.

Honestly I find the most relaxing and fun seessions to be those with open passing. Any place that limits my passing to straights or point by only makes it much harder for me in my slow low hp car to get around. Of course that is not to say point by's don't happen in HPDE4. They do and I given them as often as possible and I look for them too. It is just we are not restricted by them.

The other thing to note is that drivings in HPDE 4 are all pretty good drivers. This means they are aware of their surroundings and who is coming and who is fast. This means in general they are one of the safer groups and certainly not novices by any means. Simply one requirement to run in 4 is to be safe in traffic and open passing. If you can't handle it or don't like it you don't need to run in HPDE4.

RXDOC

Mitch:
I couldn't have said it any better myself. I totally agree with you on this. As a casual DE'r, I have no plans to race, and want me and my car to go home in good shape. Thats why I picked HPDE3 over HPDE4 for this weekends NASA event. I am pretty confident I can run with the -4's, and I would like to do the TT's, but I worry about the "other guy". At the last NASA DE, an M3 runs up my backside AND almost passes me AFTER I slowed down for the checkered flag. He tells me later he was timing himself and was trying to make it to the transponder at full speed!

mrbill_fl

I'm OK with passing in the turns, (in HPDE 4), as long as they keep the entry requiremnts to run in HPDE 4 very strict. (ie., only competition licenced drivers)

I also have the option of running in 4 or the 3 group (point by required in Hpde 3), I typically do NOT run in 4, as its a pretty fast group, and I dont want to get tagged..... also can't take my students in 4.... and I'm slow... on the straights anyway. And I don't want to ruin a hot lap for a team.

I look at hpde 4 as a test and tune session... one where the drivers are prepared to write off the car... in search of speed.

this kinda goes back to the overall risks at DE's.... lets not sugar coat it!

DE's 'CAN' be dangerous.... everyone should say it out loud. people do total cars, get hurt and even die...

But at the same time, I don't want anyone tell me I can't do this, cause its (too) risky.

It should be my personal decision....

So....I mostly run HPDE3, unless the fast guys break and go home.

As long as everyone knows the risks, I think its fine.

mitch236

Just one more point. I agree with what you post above in principle. It is true that racing is different because of the competition but when you combine open passing with TT's that's when things may get dicey. There are alot of very fast cars being driven by only barely competent people and that's who scares me.

38D

At the DEs I have been at with open passing, I have not seen any issues. It is up to the overtaking car to make the pass safely. In a DE environment, I am not going to take the pass unless I can clearly get by the person...not just up to the door handle. Yes, it's passing in the corners, but it is definitely less aggressive that racing. It's a "tweener" -- somewhere between traditional DE and racing, and IMHO a good learning experience for most.

RXDOC

The problem is, NASA doesn't keep it very strict! I was very conflicted about choosing -4, with the better, faster drivers, or -3. The problem is that in -3 you get the whole spectrum from newbies to very experienced because NASA is not very picky on who moves up to -3.

mrbill_fl

not Strict for who? whos running in 4 that should not?
-I don't run there, cause I know I'm a rolling chaicane, not my skills, but my cars top end, and the speed differential.

the guys I see in 4, I was ok with.... (nasa fla)

But Mitch is right, TT in a open passing group is racing, and the cars are NOT prepped for that.

whats the solution?
Stop open passing, or just the TT in that group ?
(run TT in solo/ extra fee type group? like pboc)

but, I can understand why high HP cars want a faster run group...

M758

TT requires open passing to be effective.

Howver TT is not racing. Not by any means.

A TT session works like a qualfying session for a race group. The goals is not pass people, but to get open track to run fast lap. Passing in a corner is not going to get you a fast lap.

TT is different from HPDE. That is for sure given that you are pushing like mad for a time. DE or even testing is just not the same.

Racing is not at all like TT. What you guys forget is that in race the drivers work hard to make passes and defend passes. The danger of racing comes from that fight between those passing and those trying to stop it. In race if some in you class is behind you and is faster you work like mad to keep them back there. It is the name of the game. In DE, Time Trial and even race group practice if the car behind you is faster then you need to allow them to pass.

RXDOC

Strict as I initially ran in NASA last March, in group 3, with No verification of my prior experience. I just picked HPDE3 and showed up.
Strict as in I had the option to run TT's and in HPDE4 with no verification of my skills. Maybe I shouldn't be in HPDE4!
As a High-HP car, I just need a safe group, I can creat my own open space.

mitch236

To be fair, there is little verification of skill to go racing either. But in racing, everyone knows the risks involved and is required to have the requisite safety equipment. In DE, drivers expect the organizers to provide a relatively safe environment.

TT with open passing should be billed as RE (racer's education) not DE.

mrbill_fl

Alright, I don't really have a stake in this, so I'm not going to fight about it...

I'm ok with open passing.... as long as everyone knows what the rules are and mind set is.
(I like the choice, or option...)

The only time I saw a Time Trial was with PBOC-Florida, 2 cars on track (max), on a 12 turn track, 2nd car is let out when 1st car is in T6.

I have never seen TT's in a large run group with say 40 cars on track at once.

However, In my mind, TT's are just like qualifiying.... and (in my mind) Qualifying IS the 1st race 'event' of the weekend.
(qualifying, the start, the rest of the race... then last lap, each being individual race 'events')

if they are not properly screening HPDE4, thats another Big issue, and should be addressed. no doubt.

38D

Exactly.

Has anyone else here actually done a DE with open passing?

mitch236

I've done open passing. I've raced. I haven't done time trials. The thing that bothers me is that as you add TT to the mix, you are going to have guys who are h@ll bent on getting a clean lap and will push the envelope of what is safe.

RXDOC

I didn't mean to turn this thread into NASA-bashing. The thread started with a poster saying what a good experience they had with NASA. I am running with NASA this weekend. I am putting my trust in their judgment. They are a good organization. Everyone has freedom of choice, if they offer open passing and I don't like it, I can walk!
Eveyone be safe!