Contain Yourselves - My Kirkey RR Deluxe Grows Up.
03-06-2006, 01:42 PM
#31
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Hey All;
Here is the shoulder containment portion and the rear brace bracket complete. I spent most of the morning yesterday relieving the bracket of some weight. The nice pattern matches the brace too!
The Helmet Halo is next. The plan...
Here is the shoulder containment portion and the rear brace bracket complete. I spent most of the morning yesterday relieving the bracket of some weight. The nice pattern matches the brace too!
The Helmet Halo is next. The plan...
03-06-2006, 04:01 PM
#32
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John, nice work - I'm looking forward to seeing it in person this spring.
I will come to the defence of the Recaro SPG (like they need me defending it
) - the force distribution in a side impact is across the entire torso, rather than just the shoulder, so you're trading off cracked ribs for a separated shoulder. In my case, and I smacked hard, I ended up with sore ribs for a couple of days and that was it. Given that we use the cars for enduros, and have to do driver changes, the level of protection is pretty good. I'm sure the full containment seat is safer, but the composites are safe enough. Heck, if I put any more safety equipment on me or in the car, there won't be room for me to sit.
Cheers,
Bruce
I will come to the defence of the Recaro SPG (like they need me defending it
) - the force distribution in a side impact is across the entire torso, rather than just the shoulder, so you're trading off cracked ribs for a separated shoulder. In my case, and I smacked hard, I ended up with sore ribs for a couple of days and that was it. Given that we use the cars for enduros, and have to do driver changes, the level of protection is pretty good. I'm sure the full containment seat is safer, but the composites are safe enough. Heck, if I put any more safety equipment on me or in the car, there won't be room for me to sit.Cheers,
Bruce
03-06-2006, 09:23 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by brucegre
John, nice work - I'm looking forward to seeing it in person this spring.
I will come to the defence of the Recaro SPG (like they need me defending it ) - the force distribution in a side impact is across the entire torso, rather than just the shoulder, so you're trading off cracked ribs for a separated shoulder. In my case, and I smacked hard, I ended up with sore ribs for a couple of days and that was it. Given that we use the cars for enduros, and have to do driver changes, the level of protection is pretty good. I'm sure the full containment seat is safer, but the composites are safe enough. Heck, if I put any more safety equipment on me or in the car, there won't be room for me to sit.
I will come to the defence of the Recaro SPG (like they need me defending it
) - the force distribution in a side impact is across the entire torso, rather than just the shoulder, so you're trading off cracked ribs for a separated shoulder. In my case, and I smacked hard, I ended up with sore ribs for a couple of days and that was it. Given that we use the cars for enduros, and have to do driver changes, the level of protection is pretty good. I'm sure the full containment seat is safer, but the composites are safe enough. Heck, if I put any more safety equipment on me or in the car, there won't be room for me to sit.Indeed, driver changes are a mitigating factor. Tough to deal with if you have drivers of differing size. Still, there are compromises that can be made to increase safety without being too tough to deal with. Mine would not be ideal to the average size guy, for sure.
When to the asphalt companies fire up up there?
03-06-2006, 09:44 PM
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Progress continues;
The rear brace assembly in final form, now with more appropriate MIL-spec ball locking pins in place of the ones from Tractor Supply. The seat will flex about an 1/8". SOLID!
Halo Prototype;
Yeah.. I know what some are saying. Well, Velum is not nearly rugged enough. Besides, cardboard sort of fits my syle; no... not cheap, functional.
The steel prototype came out almost perfect. The first bend is easy. It is the second bend where things get tricky. You suddenly then are presented with a distance relationship, and the distance between bends that you calculate usually does not pan out exactly when you bend tubing for real. My beginning-of-bend mark was a little off and made the halo about 1/2" too wide to the right of center. Now, however, by examining the first side bend I knew exactly where to make the subsequent bend, and indeed the left side is nearly perfect... within a 1/16"!
This stuff is FUN!
The rear brace assembly in final form, now with more appropriate MIL-spec ball locking pins in place of the ones from Tractor Supply.
The seat will flex about an 1/8". SOLID!Halo Prototype;
Yeah.. I know what some are saying. Well, Velum is not nearly rugged enough. Besides, cardboard sort of fits my syle; no... not cheap, functional.
The steel prototype came out almost perfect. The first bend is easy. It is the second bend where things get tricky. You suddenly then are presented with a distance relationship, and the distance between bends that you calculate usually does not pan out exactly when you bend tubing for real. My beginning-of-bend mark was a little off and made the halo about 1/2" too wide to the right of center. Now, however, by examining the first side bend I knew exactly where to make the subsequent bend, and indeed the left side is nearly perfect... within a 1/16"!
This stuff is FUN!
03-06-2006, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
Is a seat that flexes very little ideal? My thought is you would want a little bit of flex to help cushion any impact.
A little bit of flex is probably not bad, but how much is a little, and how do you control it? Too little and you could make a theoretical case that it would be a bit rough on your body. However, too much and you add to the whiplash motion that your body is subjected to already.
It has been very well established that;
- The body can sustain very severe linear impacts.
- The whiplash effect at the end of the motion is FAR more devastating.
The ultimate model seems to be to very quickly and comprehensively contain the body from large, long-time-frame movement. F1/Champcar/IRL open-wheelers and NASCAR sleds are the state-of-the-art, albeit achieved in different ways. A high degree of containment, and high density padding everywhere you can get it.
Don't allow the body to move much, and you decrease energy buildup.
03-07-2006, 08:34 AM
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Thanks John
I see what you are saying and I think a good option would be a high denisty foam insert, it would give some what but not enough to generate the whiplash effect you mentioned. I have friends with formula and sports racer cars and their seats are poured foam. Behind the seat is the chassis of the car which shouldn't flex (like your seat).
I see what you are saying and I think a good option would be a high denisty foam insert, it would give some what but not enough to generate the whiplash effect you mentioned. I have friends with formula and sports racer cars and their seats are poured foam. Behind the seat is the chassis of the car which shouldn't flex (like your seat).
03-07-2006, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
Thanks John
I see what you are saying and I think a good option would be a high denisty foam insert, it would give some what but not enough to generate the whiplash effect you mentioned. I have friends with formula and sports racer cars and their seats are poured foam. Behind the seat is the chassis of the car which shouldn't flex (like your seat).
I see what you are saying and I think a good option would be a high denisty foam insert, it would give some what but not enough to generate the whiplash effect you mentioned. I have friends with formula and sports racer cars and their seats are poured foam. Behind the seat is the chassis of the car which shouldn't flex (like your seat).
Now, the aluminum WILL give even though it is braced comprehensively. I don't plan to test how much!
I have another theory regarding alloy seats. In an offset hit, the body can travel laterally outside the boundary of the seat. A seat can twist and spill a driver out (which is why side nets are the ultimate final piece of the system). It is said that material "memory" is the advantage of a plastic seat (that it returns to position), and that the deformation of aluminum is a deficit.
If the plastic seat twisted, spilled the driver, then returned to it's original position, that sounds like bolsters in the back when the driver returned on the recoil. The alloy seat might twist, stay there, and be waiting for the driver when he recoiled back. The latter sounds more welcoming to me.
It's a theory.
Last edited by RedlineMan; 03-07-2006 at 01:39 PM. Reason: Spelling
03-07-2006, 11:07 AM
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John,
I have a friend and fellow track rat that does all the tooling (I think that is the right term) for Randy Lajoie's company. He has one of his custom seats in his car (911 RSA) and it looks pretty nice.
I could probably get you his email or number if you wanted it, he may know more about the seats than just how they are constructed.
I have a friend and fellow track rat that does all the tooling (I think that is the right term) for Randy Lajoie's company. He has one of his custom seats in his car (911 RSA) and it looks pretty nice.
I could probably get you his email or number if you wanted it, he may know more about the seats than just how they are constructed.
03-07-2006, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
John,
I have a friend and fellow track rat that does all the tooling (I think that is the right term) for Randy Lajoie's company. I could probably get you his email or number if you wanted it, he may know more about the seats than just how they are constructed.
I have a friend and fellow track rat that does all the tooling (I think that is the right term) for Randy Lajoie's company. I could probably get you his email or number if you wanted it, he may know more about the seats than just how they are constructed.
Yes, tooling is likely the right word. Always looking for new sources of info!
He has one of his custom seats in his car (911 RSA) and it looks pretty nice.
03-07-2006, 04:02 PM
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John,
You wouldn't by chance be going to Mid Ohio in April (Ohio Valley Region event) would you? He and his wife are usually the registrars for the event.
You wouldn't by chance be going to Mid Ohio in April (Ohio Valley Region event) would you? He and his wife are usually the registrars for the event.
03-07-2006, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
John,
You wouldn't by chance be going to Mid Ohio in April (Ohio Valley Region event) would you? He and his wife are usually the registrars for the event.
You wouldn't by chance be going to Mid Ohio in April (Ohio Valley Region event) would you? He and his wife are usually the registrars for the event.
But I hope to be there in June with North NJ Region.
03-07-2006, 09:06 PM
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Hey All;
Today saw new frontiers being engaged, and conquered quite effectively. I've fooled with a lot of aluminum sheet and plate of varying grades, but I had never tried bending aluminum tube before. I know from my work with flat stock that 6061 T6 does not bend well. I guess it was no surprise that this alloy in tube form doesn't either.
Didn't even get to 25 degrees. $12 for six feet of it. Instant test piece!
So, the next step was to learn how to do something I have read about many times, but never had occasion to do. Today, I learned how to anneal aluminum. I won't go into all the gory stuff, but annealing is a process of changing the crystaline structure of the metal by heating to a prescribed temperature, and then cooling. Cooling can either be done by allowing it to cool naturally, or quenching with water. This makes the metal more bendable, or ductile.
Some alloys like 6061 are hard by design. Some of them are very ductile until you work them. This bending, folding, and hammering "work hardens" the metal by compressing and condensing the molecular structure. Ductility can be gained, or returned, by annealing. In the case of the softer alloys used for custom panel work (mostly 3003), it can be annealed many times as necessary until the part is finished. One last work session before the part is finished will see it work harden to a very strong state, and stay that way. If it is annealed, it will stay soft until it is worked again.
6061 has the unique capability to reharden over time all by itself. This ageing is quite advantageous, as a good bit of the natural temper returns automatically. In order to be returned to exact T6 hardness spec, it must be re-tempered using a VERY precise heating and cooling regimen, but left alone, it will re harden to a very reasonable degree by itself.
T6 is a very hard grade of aluminum, but it anneals very well, I found.
There are different ways of doing it. You can buy something called Tempilstik or Tempilac that are temperature change markings you put on the metal. When you hit the right temp, they change color and consistency, telling you you've arrived.
I used the old fashioned method. You take a torch, and lighting a pure, soft yellow acetylene flame, coat the piece with black soot. You then add some oxygen to get a nice soft blue/white flame, and proceed to heat the piece carefully until the soot burns off. This is your signal that the correct temp has been reached. Quench, and bend!
I have read about this stuff for years, but just never had occasion to do it, until now. Now that I have done it for real, it is a very simple process. Not without pitfalls, but quite doable if you are careful. Thanks to Tinman944 for technical reinforcement and encouragement!
I am just flat stoked!!
After a quick and successful run through on the test piece I created previously 
I grabbed the other half of that $25 stick and bent 'er up. Honestly, I have never had anything bend so easily and come out so well with so little effort. Usually, it takes a lot of thought, patience, tweaking, and fiddling to get something to come out right, but this thing practically bent itself! It's virtually PERFECT
Now, the trick is to get it positioned correctly on the seat.
Step one: With the help of my trusty assistants (Myself, and I), I snapped a pic to judge where the thing needed to be. Being a tall galloot, the top of it is above the top of the seat! Never fear... we can solve these little issues.
Did I mention I was stoked? For two reasons. One is that I'm adding so very much to my dossier with all these projects, which was quite the point in the first place. A journey of discovery. The second reason is that the things I did today are new only to me. I've joined along with generations of panel beaters and tin knockers and thousands of years of learning and tradition.
Neat!
Today saw new frontiers being engaged, and conquered quite effectively. I've fooled with a lot of aluminum sheet and plate of varying grades, but I had never tried bending aluminum tube before. I know from my work with flat stock that 6061 T6 does not bend well. I guess it was no surprise that this alloy in tube form doesn't either.
Didn't even get to 25 degrees. $12 for six feet of it. Instant test piece!So, the next step was to learn how to do something I have read about many times, but never had occasion to do. Today, I learned how to anneal aluminum. I won't go into all the gory stuff, but annealing is a process of changing the crystaline structure of the metal by heating to a prescribed temperature, and then cooling. Cooling can either be done by allowing it to cool naturally, or quenching with water. This makes the metal more bendable, or ductile.
Some alloys like 6061 are hard by design. Some of them are very ductile until you work them. This bending, folding, and hammering "work hardens" the metal by compressing and condensing the molecular structure. Ductility can be gained, or returned, by annealing. In the case of the softer alloys used for custom panel work (mostly 3003), it can be annealed many times as necessary until the part is finished. One last work session before the part is finished will see it work harden to a very strong state, and stay that way. If it is annealed, it will stay soft until it is worked again.
6061 has the unique capability to reharden over time all by itself. This ageing is quite advantageous, as a good bit of the natural temper returns automatically. In order to be returned to exact T6 hardness spec, it must be re-tempered using a VERY precise heating and cooling regimen, but left alone, it will re harden to a very reasonable degree by itself.
T6 is a very hard grade of aluminum, but it anneals very well, I found.
There are different ways of doing it. You can buy something called Tempilstik or Tempilac that are temperature change markings you put on the metal. When you hit the right temp, they change color and consistency, telling you you've arrived.I used the old fashioned method. You take a torch, and lighting a pure, soft yellow acetylene flame, coat the piece with black soot. You then add some oxygen to get a nice soft blue/white flame, and proceed to heat the piece carefully until the soot burns off. This is your signal that the correct temp has been reached. Quench, and bend!
I have read about this stuff for years, but just never had occasion to do it, until now. Now that I have done it for real, it is a very simple process. Not without pitfalls, but quite doable if you are careful. Thanks to Tinman944 for technical reinforcement and encouragement!
I am just flat stoked!!
After a quick and successful run through on the test piece I created previously I grabbed the other half of that $25 stick and bent 'er up. Honestly, I have never had anything bend so easily and come out so well with so little effort. Usually, it takes a lot of thought, patience, tweaking, and fiddling to get something to come out right, but this thing practically bent itself! It's virtually PERFECTNow, the trick is to get it positioned correctly on the seat.
Step one: With the help of my trusty assistants (Myself, and I), I snapped a pic to judge where the thing needed to be. Being a tall galloot, the top of it is above the top of the seat! Never fear... we can solve these little issues.
Did I mention I was stoked? For two reasons. One is that I'm adding so very much to my dossier with all these projects, which was quite the point in the first place. A journey of discovery. The second reason is that the things I did today are new only to me. I've joined along with generations of panel beaters and tin knockers and thousands of years of learning and tradition.
Neat!
