Tim Comeau

Bill Seifert, you' re a BIT off on your prices and info for the 944 spec cars, but that's ok. I was hoping this post on the forum would generate some questions that would enlighten the people interested in the class. The 88's came with higher compression pistons, but that compression can be matched on the earlier cars with shaving the head. It is not needed to win and I say this based on the fact that NO 88 or even 88-engined car is running away with the series in AZ or CA. Wheels are $200-$250 per set, not $500. We have a deal with PARAGON PRODUCTS to sell 944 spec racers a suspension package for around $1,550. This includes shocks, Welt sways, your choice of springs and torsions, front threaded spring perches for the smaller 2.5 inch springs. Bushings are typically Delrin and Weltmeister. You can build your own car for around $6,000 to $8,000 including the base car.
The new SCCA only 2575 lb figure makes it difficult for some bigger drivers to get down near weight minimums, but most cars are in the 2600-2675 range and very competitive.
Brian Bailey,
I understand your concern about keeping the class pure. Balancing and lightening of engine components is not allowed. You can get 6 sets of stock rods and take the closest weight matched 4 for your engine. We already have people doing that. Net gain. Zip. Want to build a car that has a performance advantage? That's where harda$$es like me, who know the cars and the rules well, come into play. There are more than several of us dedicated to keeping costs low and the cars equal.
It's a great class and we intend on keeping it that way. Everybody's help is appreciated........

38D

Spec Miata started that way and now there are people spending $20k on front running motors. Regardless of the rules, someone will figure out a way to maximize 'em.

carreracup21

I was at a NASA event where someone in 944 Spec told me, as if it was no big deal, that he had only put in a hot cam and shaved the head down a bit for his 944 for increased compression. I was somewhat agast that someone would readily admit to such a blatant infraction with a straight face. He seemed to be under the impression that such indiscretions were common in that class.

Bill L Seifert

Tim

Yeah you are right, I was on the high side. But, it has been my experience that things always cost more than you figure. I have bought wheels for $200, but it takes some dickering. I am not always successful. It's like the $2,006 Challenge at Grassroots Motorsports. I could never duplicate those cars, I guess it's possible, but not for me. I've had my car for 17 years, and I know what it costs, but I was being a little high, but not by much.

Glad to hear about the deal from Paragon. Tell you one thing, I have never had delrin, Weltmeister bushing work on the pivot point of the steel a arms. They come apart after one weekend. I use a Weltmeister on the caster block, but the other one never works for me.

38D, you are absolutely right, it will get that way with Spec 944. You can blueprint a motor so that you can't tell by looking, but that costs a fortune. I remember when a friend of mine ran Saturns in SSC, he worked at Saturn, and could go through all the pistons at the facory to find 4 that weighed exactly the same. Nobody else could do that. It worked for him, his gain was not zip, he was National Champ a couple of years ago. He is a good driver, but he built a great car by maximizing everything he could. Where there is a will there is a way. There is no perfect system. But, I think right now, Spec 944 is still a good choice.

Bill

Bill

BBailey

Tim, a good car builder can get more horsepower to the wheels (and thats what really matters) than any backyard builder.

Brake drag, bearing drag, parasitic losses in the engine. These are items that are absolutely impossible to tech. Want to claim my engine, go ahead, the advantage isn't there, its the fact that I spent 20 hours making sure I had zero brake drag that got me 5 additional horsepower to the wheels. There are many other tricks.

If you don't think parts bin blue printing will increase engine performance, the guys that are doing it now simply don't know what they are doing.

At the end of the day, if the class becomes popular nationally, you will attract guys that will put money into making sure there car performs perfectly. When that happens, a front running car will cost $25,000, not $7,500.

That doesn't mean this isn't a great class. I love the concept and am glad PCA is considering adopting the class. I see it becoming very popular. But you are deluding yourself if you think you can keep development and technology out of the class.

richard glickel.

Is there a "supercup" class for 951 & 968?

I'm building a 968 F class car. With a northeast NASA circuit, maybe I can try out the 944 spec.

Richard

Tim Comeau

Richard,
The 968 is a great car and my first choice of weapons for the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. However, there is no Super Cup 944 spec for 968's in NASA, SCCA, or the POC. That wouldn't be spec at all. Spec is having the same cars, or as near as possible. That's why we're all driving 944's. Equal cars.

Tim Comeau

Brian, I hear you. But there are already people putting in new bearings. Cheap. They're rebuilding their calipers so they return well and create as little drag as possible. Cheap.
I hope claiming engines or mandating sealed engines is never warranted or is well down the road.

Tim Comeau

Bill,
I can deliver a fresh 944 spec car, capable of winning sprint or endurance races, first set of pads and shaved TOYO TIRES, for right around $12,000. That's custom built for you. You choose what systems to keep, and whether the car is kept street legal. That is not expensive at all.
The Weltmeister red bushings work fine on the caster block end of the control arms. They will not hold up in the front cross member. That's where we use the white Delrins. Keep in mind we only run a 225/50/15 moderately sticky tire on a 2400-2450 lb car with 130-135 rwhp.

M758

That was NOT 944 spec. Reason I know is that you on the east coast right. So far the 944 spec class has been a west coast thing. I can tell you right now if some yahoo tries that near Tim, myself, or just about spec driver they will get torn down, and tossed from the group.

Yes there is some concern that 944 spec will take off and some folks will try to spend their way into more performance. What is stopping us now are two things. 1) the cars don't responed well to most things so even if you play in the gray area's you don't get much if anything. We have had folks work hard to find hp. The result is alot of time and money wasted before they forget about hp and start learning to drive the cars.
2) Our series directors and drivers don't want the class to turn expensive and are always on the lookout for someone or something that could wreck the intent.

Yes there will be more challenges as the class grows, but it is beaten in to the heads of all drivers... the series is about driving skill not the size of your wallet.

M758

Bill,
I have been running that combo for 3 years or so now. In fact I have the oldest set since my 944 was the first with delrin bushings for the steel arms.

I just inspected them and found the both parts to be in perfect condition.

carreracup21

It may have been 944 Cup, I didn't really pay that much attention since I was in another class and just visiting. The point was, it sounded like there were some shinanigans going on. Usually its not the front running cars pulling that kind of stuff. Good driving can make up for a good bit of hp deficit. I hope the series is successful in PCA. I saw several very good 944 drivers at that event that need to be back in PCA keeping it strong.

Tim Comeau

Carrear Cup # 21 .....out of the original 25? Nice car!

Let's clear up some confusion about the various 944 racing groups.

1. 944 Cup= East coast group, cool, but not spec. Mostly SCCA ITS and PCA I class cars with weight adjustments.
2. 944 spec= NASA. Nationwide class with groups in Az, SoCal, NorCal, Colorado, and one new car in Seattle, Wash!
3. 944 spec = PCA Club racing. Nationwide, first race ever for this new group will be Phoenix Int'l Raceway on March 4-5.
4. 944 GSR =POC. L.A.-based Porsche only club. Only in the L.A. area.
5. Spec-944 = SCCA. One big group in Arizona with occasional SoCal visitors.

Group #'s 2-5 have virtually the same spec rules. We've all got different names, but we're really all the same.......
ONE WORLD.
ONE CLASS.
944 CLUB RACING!

Matt Marks

Tim,

Is there an official announcement on this from PCA and/or the first event or events that it's going to be run at?

Some more details would be welcomed by many.

Tim Comeau

Matt,
This was posted elsewhere by Manny Alban (PCA National Sec.).
"I spoke with John Crosby (PCA Club Racing Chairman) and the new class rules should be posted in a week or so. Since he had a large audience of racers at Sebring, I think he wanted to release the news a little early."

The rules should be on the PCA website by Monday morning if not sooner, according to John Crosby, who emailed me yesterday or today saying they were done and going on the website. Those are pretty "official" officials, no?
The first race for this new PCA class will be March 4-5 at Phoenix Int'l Raceway. The second will be at California Speedway, Fontana on March 25-26.
Hope that helps?
At your service,
Tim