camber799

This is an interesting subject and Bill, you bring up some good points. There are differences of opinion about trailbraking. I learned trail braking right off the bat at Bondurant who is a proponent of the technique. I think this is something that students should learn right away. Why learn an incorrect technique then have to fix it later. It just becomes more difficult for the student.

Trail braking serves several purposes. 1. Helps Rotate Car 2. Makes Weight Shift Very Smooth 3. Scrubs Speed when you screw up! It has saved my bacon many a time.

Some people say you should never trail brake. I remember one respected school owner who said it shouldn't be done. We then watched a video showing one of their hot-shoe instructors in a FF and he proceeded to trail brake EVERY SINGLE CORNER! It was subtle but the brakes were still being dragged after the turn-in. Sometimes we are splitting hairs when we say we are trailbraking or not. I suspect that every driver is trail braking to some extent.

Some cars need more than others. If I was in a Ford Mustang with a big heavy nose I'd want to trail brake more. If I was in a mid-engine formula car, sports racer or SRF I'd probably want very little (same with early 911s). Additionally, some corners require more than others. Just like everything the answer is "it depends. You do what it takes to get the job done right".

I remember being a student in the PCA DE program years ago and had a difficult time with an instructor who insisted that I not trail brake. Of course having been trained to do so and then have an instructor insist that I not REALLY screwed up my timing. I was set up for trailbraking and so was the car. It was a disaster. He was driving an early 911 and was teaching from his perspective rather than mine and it was wrong. Something to consider.

The same debate can be said for steering wheel technique. Some say you should never move the wheel once you've commited to the turn. But... then you watch that Schumacher video that Bill references above and that wheel has been moved so many times you can't count. The key is to do it in a way that doesn't upset the balance. Schumacher does it with such fine resolution that it looks smooth. It is probably OK to tell a novice to do that but a highly skilled DE driver or club racer is on the edge and the wheel has to move.

Same with the different strategies for turning the steering wheel. Some say you should never move your hands of the 9-3 position, others shuffle, etc. There is no right answer to this because if you show me a great pro driver (Phil Hill, Schumacher, etc etc - top level drivers) each has a different technique. They push their technique and tell you its wrong to do it another way. Ironically, there is alwasy another driver that comes along and does it another way and is just as fast or faster.

I generally tell students to keep hands at 9-3 and move them as little as possible. If they have airbags I suggest they consider shuffle steering because if they get in a crash with their arms all crossed up they'll have to have them surgically removed from their a$$ when the air bag goes off. Of course, I shuffle steer so I'm guilty of the do as I say not as I do mode of instruction (no airbag).

Well I'm writing the equivalent of a Leo Tolstoy book so I'll sign off now...

Interesting subject. Thanks for bringing it up. It woke me from the off-season hibernation.

Bill935K3

I think maybe what is alarming some is I am now pretty much a full time racer and I'm quoting what was taught in "racing" classes. I would make the point the same techniques are taught (to greater or lesser extent) in all of these schools classes what ever they were named.
I just feel we should drop the “get all your braking done in a strait line” rule. Performance driving is all about smooth transition that get quicker and quicker. Let’s not discourage a student that is doing the right thing naturally.
On the main topic of focusing on trail-off / turn-in point for braking I think it has a lot of merit but this one I feel needs a lot of caution! Over the years I find myself using brake start points less and less as a weekend and on track memory pictures (experience) get filed away. But good visual brake start points and consistent brake effort are something that novices need to start with and hold onto for a while as they are dealing with so much new stuff. It is much easier for a student to make adjustments in small bites with a firm starting point and consistent brake effort. I find visual (ocular driving) hard to teach. I can remember some of my instructors trying to get me looking at their reference points but they were do different from my speed at the time and the way my eyes and brain interacted is was screwing me up. Better to just keep encourage them to keep looking up and down the track to find and tell me what the see that helps them be on line.

pedsurg

Thanks for the thread. I've attended several PCA instructor schools and none included a presentation of the type discussed here. This tape, and I suspect many others, would be helpful in extending and improving our educational programs.
Jack

SundayDriver

I agree. When I was instructing, I found that most new drivers were using trail braking in some places without realizing it, or even understanding what they were doing.

Once someone gets past the basics of being on the line and getting comfortable on the track, I think it is mostly about balance, balance, balance. Do whatever is needed to balance the car. When a student is focusing on balance, then trail braking, left foot braking and anything else is fair game and comes more naturally.

SundayDriver

I think that most poeple have a backwards definition of what is smooth - I certainly did. We start 9and it is appropriate) by learning smooth inputs. But as you approach the limits, that is not smooth.

How smooth is it to set the steering as you enter a fast corner and crash into the wall?

Smooth, more correctly, IMO, is what the platform of the car is doing, not the driver inputs. When Alonso pitches the steering wheel, the car is balanced. That equals smooth. When sawing at the wheel to make NEEDED corrections, you are balancing the platform and making it smoother than had you left the steering set.

So, smooth is the dance to balance the car, not whether there are corrections or even jerky looking inputs.

DrJupeman

I agree with this and Ross' point that Z brought up. I've never really relied on brake points to brake. Folks are often surprised when they ask me, "where do you brake for X" and my reply is usually "hmm, I'm not sure..."

kurt M

Bingo! This is where and when I teach trail braking. I let the driver know what he is doing as most of the time low hour drivers don't intend to trail brake and do so without knowing it. I point out what they are doing and have them learn by using it increasingly and where appropriate.

The end of the back straight at VIR is an example of a great place to expose a Green student to this. It just feels right even to a beginner there.

Z-man

That brings up another interesting point that Ross Bentley made: he asked if we thought Schumacher makes any mistakes on the track. <Pause for effect.>

His answer - Schumacher probably makes just as many mistakes today as he did when he first started driving on a racetrack! The difference is that today, he corrects those mistakes far, far sooner than anyone else does. Hence the many subtle corrections to his steering inputs.

In the case of a newbie driver going through a turn, he will realize he has made a mistake and is off somewhere after the apex. An intermediate driver will realize he's off probably just prior to the apex. A seasoned driver will realize that corrections need to be made a couple of feet after the turn in point. According to Bentley, Schumacher is most likely making corrections millimeters after the turn in point! Therein lies the difference!

Bentley suggests that the reason Schumacher corrects his mistakes sooner is becuase he has the ability to take in more sensory input than most racers. The more input, coupled with more subconscious driving yields a very, very fast driver.

I tell ya, if you haven't read his books - start tomorrow! <-- Shameless plug. Also: book him to speak at your region's driver's/instructor's workshops! Not only does he know his stuff, he has a very good way of presenting it - whether it's in his book, or he's presenting in front of a bunch of track junkies. I can only imagine what he can do with a driver in one-on-one coaching -must be fantastic.

-Z-man.

Bill935K3

Hi Camber,
My front Engine experance on track is very limited. 1 day plus occasional student car 4 laps in 944’s and 1.5 days in and M-3. but I have generally found less need to trail bake these cars , Mid engine F-2000’s more trail braking and 911 rear eng. platforms need the most.

Sunday Driver: brings up Alonso’s turn in. What a great example of someone using what no doubt works but is so different than most. Whether he does it because of the platform or his personal setup WHO CARES! I would love to see in-car of his teammate split screen to study.

Here is a link to me going through the outer loop at WG with “good” hand movement. Of course you can watch a lot of my in-car before you find me getting it this right. Notice I do not get to the apex (ha ha) but I tend to look at the glass half full. I would not call it correcting mistakes as much as finding the limit of the tires and correcting for small losses of adhesion, a GOOD THING. Ideally this video would show the same hand movements but making the apex and thus I would pick up the gas maybe 1.5 car lengths sooner.
http://members.rennlist.com/bill935k...op%20quick.wmv

}{arlequin

good topic. here's another compilation of thoughts about when/how/why to lift off the brake based on "cstreit's" experience:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...hlight=braking

Bob Rouleau

Great thread, thanks Z! Bill, around here we teach students to initiate turn-in as the driver is "fading" off the brakes. On the other hand, if I have a student who release the brakes smoothly then it is "straight line braking only" until I can teach them to come off the brakes correctly. If the driver sidesteps the brake pedal all the benefits of trail braking are lost and the risk factor goes up.

Best,

DrJupeman

Gotta full lap? Mmm, turbo...

Larry Herman

Looks good Bill. I like the way you power through the bus stop. One thing I would try is to be later in 6. I brake way down into that turn, and continue braking and turning (but not to the point of inducing rotation) well into that turn. Then you can pick up the gas and power past the apex, coming out of that turn like a rocketship. It seemed to work well in my GT3 and in the GT2 that I drove there.

Bill935K3

the good the bad and the ugly
Ecstasy
http://members.rennlist.com/bill935k3/WGqual20052A.wmv

http://members.rennlist.com/bill935k...best%20lap.wmv
and agony
http://members.rennlist.com/bill935k3/RearLockSpin.wmv

http://members.rennlist.com/bill935k...RR%20wheel.MPG

38D

Z - do you know how much he charges for speaking?