TheOtherEric

I'm not racing (yet) but the 993 Weight thread got me thinking. First off, if there are only one or two competitive models in each class, isn't something fundamentally wrong with the rules? So why doesn't PCA give a weight penalty to the ringers so that others in that class have a chance? By ringers I mean for example in D: US Carrera Cup and '92 C2T.

A good example is the '99 3.4L Carrera, which apparently isn't competitive. Shouldn't they be able to run at a slightly lower weight than the later 3.6L Carreras?

Ok, who has their heads up their butt, me or the PCA? I'm starting to like the NASA rules, since it doesn't seem like it's a question of who has the biggest pocketbook or who chose the "right" car. Obviously spoken from a 993 owner.

M758

PCA does not class cars in stock based on any competitive weight. They say they class them at their "stock" weight per specs then group them classes that are "sort of" competitive.

It is simply not in the spirit of PCA to adjust weights to balance within class competition.

Dbltime

The PCA rules, as I interpret them, class stock cars by hp to weight ratios. What could be more fair? Now suspension, tires, legal car/clutch/brakes set up along with driver ability is a big part of club racing. Driver "A" who has been winning in his car could switch cars with driver "C" and still win a great deal of the time. Racing some D cars at Summit when I was in stock I was convinced those cars had no better speed or power just connecting the dots quicker and consistent. I think it is more fun to win a class in a sleeper car than show up in a car that is expected to win and does not.

TheOtherEric

Allowing all cars in a given class to run the same lb/hp ratio as the class ringer would be more fair. E.g. if I am classed with cars that have 9.5 lb/hp ratio, shouldn't I be allowed to run a 9.5 lb/hp ratio instead of 11.3 as stock? Why make me add balast to make my car uncompetitive? Alternatively, they could pick a "median" lb/hp ratio that all cars in that class must adhere to. This would force the ringers to add weight.

It just seems like PCA is thumbing their noses to so many models. '99 Carrera? Don't bother showing up. 993? You're not wanted. '96-'97 Boxster? Hah, go away.

BBailey

Where in the rule book is a guarantee of competitiveness for each car model written?

Eric in Chicago

I'm starting to like the NASA rules, since it doesn't seem like it's a question of who has the biggest pocketbook or who chose the "right" car



Budget will ALWAYS be a factor. Skill gets you up front, money keeps you there.
Some of the BMW's I have seen at the NASA club races are stocked with lots of $$$$, as much or more so than our PCA brothers.

Keep in mind PCA is "club racing" no prizes to speak of, a class for every car. With so many models going back 30+ years, I think they are doing the best they can given the # of different cars.

NASA is more of a "pro" series and now with a national championship, they are filling the gap between BMW/PCA club racing and SCCA. Heck the P car field of NASA is small compared to the American Iron, Big Bore, Spec series that make up NASA on a national basis. Pro does not mean the drivers are better but NASA is more likley to attract sponsors and provide discounts to racers, give somewhat meaningful prizes and keep a point system on a national/regional basis.

My take on the 2 series, PCA has more of a sense of community in the paddock where as it is all business (for the most part) at NASA races.

If I imagine the ideal situtation, I would take the people and structure of a PCA race with the rules and cars of NASA.

PCA is not going to change the rules to level the playing field, if you want to run at the front, practice,practice and practice some more. Then put the 993 in the garage and search for a car to run in the class you feel comfortable in. Most people that are serious about racing will buy a already built race car that will have a chance of fitting into a class with the correct power to weight ratio. When I looked at getting out of my 993, I first looked at where my buddies were running and then tried to find a car that had a good chance of running near the front (my skill keep holding my poor car from finding the front...) Then looked at cost/aval of built race cars on the market. For F, a euro 911SC would have probaly been the wepon of choice but there were few aval. when I was looking. The next best was the 944S2 which, at the time were putting out pretty good results nationwide. With drivers like Childs/Grigsby in F, the argument could be made for a 968 but those guys could probaly win with a pedal car!
Bottom line is hone you skills with the car you have, then when ready, buy a car that has a chance to win.

As a side note, the Kings (Rob and Niki of Fat Dog Racing) have done quite well with a D class 993 (1995) for several years.
A good/great driver will find a way to win no matter what they drive. A driver like me will find a way to keep a great car in the middle of the pack!!

analogmike

You sound like the SCCA Solo-II board

PCA is supposed to be for fun, I think changing some weights could work but it will take too much time and work. And for each car you make happy, someone else will be unhappy. Nice idea though.

Greg Fishman

Eric,
PCA has their rules and their methods of classifying cars, they are not perfect for all cars. I certainly wouldn't count on their formula changing.

I will use the example of the 993 since I am very familiar with it.

You can run in D stock with 3064 lbs or in C with certain mods at 3064 lbs. If you have a 993 RSCS you are at 300hp and 2800lbs and in C. The 993 RSCS has a serious advantage obviously.

My question or thought is why won't PCA let you run a 993 at specs equal to the RSCS even if your car isn't a Euro RSCS. You can do the conversion correctly, but it is horrendously pricey. PCA will not let you run as a RSCS unless you build your 993 to the exact specs and detail of the 993RS. I never understood what it hurt to let a guy run in his 993 in C at the RS weight and with a 3.6l instead of a 3.8l. Instead PCA makes you even more uncompetive by requiring you to add ballast up to 3064.

Another for instance. If you have a F car 944S2 and want to run it as a Firehawk/Cup car in E at a lesser weight you can, but as I saw this past year they disallowed a competitor to change to E because he didn't have the correct side mirrors... Gimme a break.

But at the same time if you have a C2 (90-93) 911 you can fluctuate between about three classes based on your level of prep and weight very easily.

Eric in Chicago

I know the pain you felt with your 993 Greg (that is why we never parked close to you in the paddock, your car was a scruit magnet!!!!!). I guess it is easy to fall back on it is all just for fun but that is a cop out. Greg, Jeff P, myself and countless others took their Porsche street car and tried to go club racing. Mistake? maybe. The same guys that had a street S2 or 964 or _________ fill in blank and wanted to club race it probaly had a easier time. Guys like Greg, Jeff and me either found something else or got out.
My first club race found me on the podium because Greg and Bill and JimB failed to finish, got dinged for being underweight as a 993 running in C (because of perpared mods, I was bumped up to C where the car had no chance given the RSCS and 996's I was running against. Logic would dictate that I could run lighter as all the 993's in C were but perpared did not allow me to lighten up so I had a pig of a 993 playing with cars with more hp and less lbs. Too bad, I was DQ'ed I could have told my future kids that I beat Greg,Bill E. and Jim B.!!!!

The rules will always change and racers from F1 down to PCA will always find ways to exploit the rules in any given era. I just want to go out and have as much fun as I can on the track and enhance the friendships that I have made in the paddock!!

Given the current flexibility of PCA, I think more and more racers will find races like NASA attractive.

Greg, did you find a replacement ride yet???

analogmike

PCA is ridiculous with the C2 also. Oliver Z wanted to run his C2 in D as an RSA but he could not, as he had power steering (!) and a few other minor things.

I understand it opens a can of worms if you allow things like this to slip through. But I think it would be better to allow them, and then if people complain that he's beating them due to his power steering then they can do something about it, or better yet ridicule the person who complains as a weenie.

Larry Herman

It seems to me that PCA likes to have the rare/expensive cars at the top of each class, and the more popular cars at the bottom. There is no justification for the 993 RSCS to run in C. It should be a B car, or just plain illegal for stock classes. How many of them are there anyway? The correct answer is ZERO, because they were a Europe only car. Why should a whole group of 993 owners be penalized for a couple of RSCS owners? Also, the 99 GT3 in C is ridiculous. When one shows up with a good driver, it'll own the class. Put it in B where it belongs.

forklift

Greg Fishman

Perfect idea. If I am beating you in a handicapped car, good for me. If not then it gives me a great excuse

Eric,
For this season I am probably just going to rent a few cars in some other types of cars and see where that heads. Hopefully I will share a ride at some PCA events with some generous friends like yourself. I agree that PCA is a great place to race because of the people, not the rules. I like to be competitive and at the end of the day if I don't win I am fine with that, but I would at least like to know that if I performed well the car wasn't the deciding factor. I guess that is why I maybe looking at some Spec series for the future.

JimB

Greg,
If I make it to Putnam this year you should come and do the enduro. We'll go RSA hunting.

Larry,
With a couple of exceptions, I like C. The real euro 993 RSCSs are incredible cars but a fair match for the others in the class. It's the killer clones you have to watch out for and I think they are getting a little tougher with those. You also have the RSAs that first move to the lighter weight allowed in D and then progress to C. They can be every bit as much a race car as the RSCS. 993TTs are brutal fast in the right hands but hard on brakes and tires.

I think there is an MK1 GT3 racing this year. We'll have to see how it does. My car will run down the straight even with a MKII GT3 so I'm not sure the MK1 will have that much of an advantage. All in all, it's a pretty fun class to run in.

As I mentioned in another thread, they should let the early 996s run in D with a little extra weight and all would be good.
Just my 2 cents.
Jim

TheOtherEric

Wow, this is really an eye-opening thread. Thanks for all the info guys. I'm trying to figure out where I'm going with this car thing, and I see that it definitely won't be D class PCA racing. Apparently my choices are NASA or a new car.