camber799

What you have a near-miss collision or a car goes off right in front of you or four cars are going for a corner that only two can fit into. How about going too hot into a corner, how about finding oil on the track the hard way. How about going 160mph on the back straight of Mosport only to find marble sized haill falling on the braking zone. Etc, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. How many more etc. can I add...

There are factors that you can't control. And if you took them out of the equation there would still be times where EVERYONE will have fear on the track.

SundayDriver

I think the big differnce is that many admit fear when they are spinning or some big event has happened. Not many are admitting ANY degree of fear during a lap that does not involve such an event. My contention is that MY fast laps are full of fear even without big events.

You seem to agree with your comment about getting those last couple of tenths and what it does to you. Now do that in a race because the guy (or girl) in fonrt of you is running that pace - do it for 5 or 10 or 15 laps as you try to keep up. That is big fear. My assertion is that if you run at that pace, fear is part of it. If there is no fear, then there is time left on the table.

camber799

Thanks for the honest input. And I agree about your lap time point. I've had this debate with my racing friends. It is difficult to compare talent unless you put two people in the same car on the same day with the exact same weather conditions with the same tires, etc. etc. etc.

And you'd have to have the same amount of practice in the same car with the same conditions. There are too many variables to be able to determine one's skill when comparing disimilar cars (let alone cars in a spec series). In IMHO all that matters at the end of the day is who won. And the fastest driver doesn't necessarily win.

camber799

You absolutely get my point. Thanks for the input. YOU ARE NOT FOS and I bet you are FAST.

Professor Helmüt Tester

If you know anything about motorcycle roadracing, you'll recognize the name
'Miguel DuHamel'. One of his better quotes about fear and speed (talking about Turn 1 at Brainerd) "I know we're supposed to be able to go through Turn One wide open, but my skirt kept blowing over my head."

The instant you back off, even a tiny teenie weenie bit, then you're not on the edge. When you run on that edge, you're 'apprehensive' at best. If you're comfortable, then you have found neither the limits of the car nor the limits of the driver.

SundayDriver

I strive to be FOS and am Half-Fast.

38D

The reason it is important, is that is gives all the readers of this thread a view into your own driving resume. For all I know you are Hans Stuck. But you just as easily could be some newbie hack. I just don't know. The fact that I know that Larry's times, which are good, gives him credibility when I read his posts (unlike when I read the infamous CC posts...).


The faster I go, the more I know I need to learn. My personal opinion is that there are probably only a handful of guys in all of PCA club racing that have pro level ability. Keith Peare is one of them (for the SCCAers, he'll be racing an E prod 914 next year...look for him). Unless you are one of these top guys, or a pro who didn't buy a seat, you can't claim to be "fast". I'm reasonably fast for a club racer, but when I went head to head against a pro (Coryf) at the Glen enduro, he was faster.

Larry Herman

I guess that we really haven't clearly stated what fast is. If I can run lap after lap, just a few tenths off of a hair lap, I feel that is damn fast. If I could run every lap at that "hair lap pace" then I would be another Raikkonen or Alonso. I haven't met anyone that good.

Maybe my racing experiences have been different because I also know that when I am trying to catch someone else, I don't even know if I am afraid at all. I only know whether or not I am catching them.

I find that I have fear when I am outside of my comfort zone, the zone in which I feel I have control of the situation. I have been unafraid when people have spun right in front of me, because I knew where they were going. Conversely, I have had that instant pang of fear grip my throat when the ABS triggered and I knew that I had no margin for error in braking in that situation. But that was because I went beyond my limit, and felt that I did not have control.

Would you consider being uncomfortable in some situations the same as fear? There are some turns where I feel that if I have any sort of bobble, I am in trouble. That makes me concerned, but not afraid, and it doesn't make me slower; at least I don't think so.

If that makes me FOS in a few people's book, well I can live with that. Most people know me as pretty straight up, and a pretty good driver.

38D

I'm exactly the same way. I'm working too hard to have time to be scared. It's like being in a higher state of awareness. To me scared is about getting the sinking feeling in the pit of your stomac. Like when you're car is bouncing over the Lime Rock tire wall and you realize you're about to be inverted. Or when you have a 400# passenger in the passenger seat and you try to still go flat out thru the fast left at the Glen and realize you may not make it (but luckily do!). Or seeing a huge cloud of oil smoke appear in the middle of the esses at the Glen as you go into T2 flat out. That's fear to me.

Larry Herman

Yeah, Miguel is pretty great, and quite funny. If you want to know fear, just ride a bike at speed. I admit it, I'm scared there.

And I agree with you about being apprehensive, but I don't see that as fear. Maybe reason mixed with concern. The last time forced myself to take a turn in fear I wound up in the guardrail. And you are right, that teenie weenie bit is not right on the ragged edge, but it is quite close to it, and so it begs the question: what is hard driving? Is a couple 10ths off of your absolute best time slow, or is it a couple of seconds?

SundayDriver

I have not only met some who are that good, I have had the joy of having been coached by one of them. As such, I disagree with your position (unless you are a way, way better driver than I am) that running at that hair lap pace lap after lap puts us in their league. I ran my hair lap pace. This coach ran the same pace, with me in the passenger sear, with the car better balanced than I have ever experienced. I contend that these top dirvers have a level of talent we can not really begin to imagine. Hence my definition of fast laps does not even recognize that high level to which most of us will never approach.

My definition of fast is relative to legitimate track records. That means the lap record in SCCA at Mid Ohio, for example. It does not mean the CSR record I think I still hold in a Radical in one of the Buttonwillow configs that has had a total of 3 CSR's every race that config. I know that is fluid but that is the reality. One can either use a high level like that, or find a low lever and pretend they have a talent level that is not really there. My feeling is that if you are within a second or two of that target, then it is a fast lap - absolute measurement.

But there are more important measures of fast as we each progress. If I am 10 seonds off that pace, I am NOT fast by any measure that I would use. But at 5 seconds off during my development as a driver, that is pretty fast. Now I am not going to pretend I am one of the fast guys at that pace but it is probably my limit at that stage. For me to run a lap at that pace requires that I drive with a certain level of fear.

OK - A sidebar -why are so many people refusing to say they are afraid, but will admit to aprehension, or gut clenching or any other description. This is not a precice term. Call it what you like, but I call it fear.

OK, so at 5 seconds off the pace, I am at my personal limit AT THAT STAGE of my career. If I push and drive beyond my confort zone, I will get faster. My assertion though, is that in order to get there, you need to drive in the fear zone. Then you are 4 seconds off and 5 seconds is east to do. You keep pushing and getting quicker.

But somehwere around 1-2 seconds off, you are hitting some real limits. There is a lot of little stuff like set up, but what you are really running up against is your true talent limit. You don't have to be withing that Golden Second to be driving fast, but you have to get there to know you are likely at your real talent limit. Can Kimi go beyond that? Sure, but that is not a reasonable measure of comparison because there may only be 20-30 people in the world that can perform at that level. The lap record level I use has hundreds, if not a few thousand that can perform at that level.

JCP911S

We've kind of morphed into some philosophical discussion about what "fear" is. I say one person's fear is another person's exhileration. Its a personal thing.

I will tell you this, there is nothing that I have ever experienced on a race track (including going head on into a tire wall at 70 mph) that scared me as much as performing in front of an audience.

I have played music for years and done stand up comedy, and when you have lead in your stomach and clammy skin for hours and hours before a performance, or bomb doing stand-up and have flop-sweat running down your back... that's fear.

Premier Motorsp

Ok. It is exciting. But I just wouldn't call it fear. There are a few corners in this country where every lap it takes a little bit of convincing to do what needs to be done. I guess that could be fear engaging the self preservation instinct.

I think fear comes from being forced to deal with a situation that you have no control over. Dealing with the IRS would be one example. Once you have learned to trust your car control, the fear goes away.

Referencing the fear factor to whether you are fast or not is really dumb. I'll bet I would be more scared driving an F1 car 10 seconds off the pace of the 2004 world champion than driving a Cup car 1 second off the pace of the 2004 cup car champion (which I have done, and it wasn't scary).

Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports

Larry Herman

I would have no idea which one of us is faster, but based upon the amount of racing success that you have had lately, I'd guess that you were. That is not endemic to our topic though, driving with fear. I feel that my best driving, averaged over multiple laps, is faster when I have confidence in what I am doing, and can drive without my heart in my throat. Can I go a little quicker and drive with fear, apprehension, gut clenching or what ever you call it? Yes, but only for a lap or two, then I am exhausted, and will start to get ragged. I personally feel that only the very best can do this lap after lap. Most others will back down after a few laps like that.

So was he afraid, or was it that his lines and control were better, and so he was comfortable running those laps?

Here is where we have a fundamental disagreement. Was your coach faster because he could handle more fear, or because he drove better, more consistent, faster lines? I believe that you get faster as you become more precise with your control of the car, and you gain a greater understanding of what makes the car grip and respond. You can consistently run closer to the edge and turn faster laps without being afraid.

Agreed, but again do you think that Kimi really scares himself every time out?

I do not know if we can ever reach a consensus on this, but it is certainly a topic worth discussing because of all the differing viewpoints.

Brian_77_3.6

When I first started driving on the track as a student in DE there was lots of fear and very little feeling of finding the grove. Turning in early and running out of track, braking to late and carrying too much speed into a corner and correcting for not being smooth and consistent kept me on edge for the entire session. I drove with constant fear for my first couple of years. I also remember fear the first couple of times I soloed. Then the break throughs started to happen and I learned the many lessons that many instructors had shared with me. Began to become smooth and consistant and speed started to come. Lots of thumbs up from the instructors in the right seat and the fear began to disapear. Moved up to a solo group and new fears cropped up. Car that you are following hits the wall and spins in the bowl at pocono as parts are flying everywhere. You need to react and get around the problem. Thats a pucker moment. Late passes and being up their butt going into the corner. (praying that your breaks dont fade). Being the one taking the late pass and trying to keep the car you just passed from running up your butt. But the more you are exposed to these fear factors the less the feeling effects your driving. These things just become events that you have to quickly deal with but they stop making your heart beat out of your chest and sweat poor from you. At this point in your driving progress you start to find the mental focus required to drive quickly, react to situations smoothly and address your mistakes with immediate precision. You know there is more speed to be had from whatever level of car you are driving but finding that additional speed is not done through fear but rather with focusing your mind to get it all right . So I do not think fear helps make you faster in terms of driving 10/10ths. Fear provents the mental focus to get it all right. Fear makes you loss focus on those senses that are required to go fast. Loose touch with the senses and you are either going to slow way down or screw up and go off track. Without fear I now drive at 8/10ths and will continue to improve my skills and get to 9/10ths. With fear I would still be in an instructed group.