James-man

I agree with the 3 half hour sessions. I was fairly satisfied with this. Although in really, really hot weather, I think I'd actually prefer 4 20 minute sessions to spread all of the heat issues out a bit.

In mild weather you can run longer more comfortably for both the driver and the car. Not sure if longer sessions allow the tires to get noticably warmer on cold days. Possible?

If you want to split hairs with math, you actually get more hot laps with fewer, longer run sessions than with more, shorter sessions. There are fewer warm up laps, fewer cool down laps, less cumulative grid waiting time, etc. Ideally, we would have more, longer sessions, but that would require some exclusivity at events and higher particpation costs.

I understand that some of the pricier DE event hosting organizations have a bit more track time per day. It would be interesting to see a grid of track time and registration cost for each organization. Concerning traffic, it would also be interesting to compare (ya right, like this data exists), mean, median, min, max lap times by run group so you can anticipate by the variation and size of groups how much traffic you may encounter. Dream on eh?

BrianKeithSmith

I want 6 30 minute sessions per day

The best time I've ever had was at CMP a few years back with the POC-SE. We ran 5 1 hour sessions that day, I did 342 miles of driving that day alone according to my odometer.

I went home, and collapsed, but had an absolute blast!

The old Tracquest format was good for alot of sessions. You could get several 1 hour sessions in within a day. You'd go back to the motel, take a shower, and be asleep by 8:00pm.

Good stuff

Brian

jford

James,
This sort of speaks back to the beginings of the thread (before I semi hijacked it that is). The particiipation costs need not be higher but rather the clubs would not need to make as much 'profit'. Yes, this philosophy would limit the participants but give the benifit of a min. of 2 hrs. of track time/day per driver. Chin and Tracquest are for profit entities but they charge about $500 (for 2 days and 2 1/2 hrs/day) at the Glen and VIR. Take the profit neccesity out and the fact that PCA events pay less for track insurance and the costs should be sig. less. Look at the overhead Chin and those types of org. have ...flying in members to run the event, car and hotel rentals, web hosting and desiging along with office exp. All that and they are still only a few hundred more for sig. more track time. Also many times their instructors run free.

There, the thread is back to its origins, for better or for worse. Hats off to Jeffery for starting this disccusion as it is something close to my heart (ok that may be a little dramatic).

Jamie

m3bs

No doubt, one day events with unlimited track time (and no students) would be my choice. The increased cost is at least partially offset by fewer nights away from home, etc. This format also relieves the pressure of having to "make the best" of limited run sessions, so you can tinker with setup.

There will always be a need to provide events which cater to all levels of drivers, but it sure is nice just to go play and have time to pay attention to my own car once in a while.

James-man

Yes but can you imagine the complexity of having to create a rebate process to distribute back to participants all "profits" made on an event? Surplus profit would rebate back to the registrants? Trust me, I could sure use the money!

The risk that a club takes is that, for whatever reason, fewer people sign up than expected, or due to weather forecasts, people cancel. Some "profit" should be taken to cover risks of future events. Who knows, due to the popularity of motorsports today, track rental fees may increase. The non profit with $$$ in the bank can hold registration fees down longer if they choose to subsidize future events with past event funds.

The Carolinas Region events have among the lowest entry fees that I have seen. Maybe they do it by stuffing run groups? Don't like it? Then find another organization to run with that doesn't stuff groups, but know that the registration costs will be significantly higher.

Personally, I find it difficult to take issue with an organization's "profitability" if it is the participants' choice to put their money there. As a participant, profitability really isn't my concern. What matters is whether I get what I paid for or not.

If Carolinas region dropped their prices further, there would probably be so many more applicants for events that most wouldn't get in. If anything, they should raise prices to keep enrollment down. Fewer would be turned down and only those that really really want to be there would go. Run groups may even thin out a bit!

There are many other organizations to run with and I think we all benefit by being able to choose from differing packages - $$ and track time wise. There just isn't really good, consistently disclosed information about track time in relation to entry fees.

The math matters most if you intend on getting a private event together. That would be excellent and worth all of the computations!

James-man

The initial post actually raises a good question. You just do not see many "no student" DE track events. Is this because it could call into question whether the event is truly Driver Education or not?

It would seem that there is strong interest in such an event. Just wondering.

jford

James,
No rebates would need be given but rather I would suggest that the regions keep some level of 'profit' but lower that number and keep the run time up. The reason I/we can take exception to an 'organization's profitibility' is because the PCA is our 'club' and is not in the 'profit' business. Chin and the like are different and your axiom holds there. Sure PCA regions need a little left over to insulate themselves for losses incured on events that don't 'fill' but I think that, in some cases, they may be better insulated than need be. Of course a PCA region treasurer or track chair may want to chime in on this.

Jamie

kurt M

In my region the loading is not based on profit but on what the track can hold and the desire to have as many drivers that want to participate are able to do so. We have a wait list for almost all events and fill based on the need rather than the money. Some of our events loose money every year and they are offset by the ones that make a small “profit” Overall it is close to a wash in my region. We strive for one instructor to student and limit the total track loads to alleviate the trains. When there is a problem with trains in the lower groups it can often be reduced by the instructors being on top of the mirrors and getting his students arm out the window for a passing signal.

I have noted that in some events that are held by regions that don’t do many DEs or events that have a lot of folks from different regions melded together trains are present regardless of the cars per mile. I think this comes from folks not knowing each other on track and the organizers not having the information needed to put the cars/drivers in the right run groups.

There is no excuse for extended trains in Green and Blue. The instructor needs to keep an eye on the mirrors and get the student to give passes as needed. PEIROD! If you get held up in a train in Green or Blue the lead car’s instructor is at fault not the student. If you are the student getting held up have your instructor talk to him. If you are an instructor in a group that has a locomotive, talk to the instructor involved. Red and Black can have slower cars in the mix if the low HP cars drivers are savvy and stay caught up on the mirrors to get the arm out as needed.
If your student runs from rear bumper to rear bumper get him moved up to the next group. He or his car is faster than the group overall and he needs to have some leg room to learn. If your student has his arm out all day and you can move down one group so he can get some breathing room to think of driving and look out the front rather than one eye in the mirror all day. Ether extreme sucks for the driver.

993inNC

Saw you're car this weekend, that thing was beautiful! Never found you around it but........
Glad to hear you had a great time. I did as well. It was my first with the Carolina's boys and they are a good bunch. I also went through the national instructor class on Friday, and had one student in green, so it was a busy weekend for me. Going to CMP in March?

On a side note, that Glen trip sounds like a blast, and a good op. to caravan with other 'Listers.

K964

Hey Jamie, not to state the obvious, but, Count Me In!!!

trumperZ06

Viper Days should be included with the Chin/Tracquest...

more... $Money$...

more track time groups.

Jim Frazier's POC events offered ample track time too.

Peachstate BMW does a good job balancing co$t/track time.

Panoz open track days at Road Atlanta... Sunday Group " A "... is good value too !

BrianKeithSmith

As far as pricing goes, it would seem to me that you could charge more, depending on which group you wanted to run in. For example, I like running in Red, because that's where my car fits in the best, generally, from a speed standpoint. And I'd pay to get to drive in Red, but unfortunately, most clubs won't allow you to run in the Red group unless you instruct. What I'm saying is, since the Red group is generally the most experienced group anyway, normally congestion in that group is an issue, so why not charge a premium for a few open slots in Red??? I'd sign up!

Brian

DanS911

The reason I/we can take exception to an 'organization's profitability' is because the PCA is our 'club' and is not in the 'profit' business.

I can't speak for any other region but the Gold Coast Region however...... I can tell you that profit has never been a goal as long as I have been involved.
I have run lots of events over the past few years and my "salary" has never been based on "profitability".

All I can say is if you want more say in how events are structured and run....volunteer to help out...there are no secret societies and no hidden pork funds that organizers have wild and crazy parties with (at least not that I know of....hummmm) PCA is a volunteer organization run by the members, at least by the ones that get involved.

9-kevin-11

Hi Chris,

I had a lot of fun - I bought Ed Coon's DVD for CMP - so I'll definitely be there (assuming i can get signed up fast enough - i understand CMP usually fills in a few days). How did things go for you as an instructor? And, which car were you instructing in the green group? (it probably passed me on Saturday, but I probably returned the favor on Sunday )

jford

Dan,
Thanks for your input. I do want you to know that I mean no disrespect to those who volunteer and give of themselves in puting these events together. Having had the experience myself I know that it takes lots of time getting the event together.

My comment was more directed to the previuos post were the poster indicated he would not take exception to an organization making a profit as long as he got what he paid for. My point is that the club is not in the profit business and I think there may be times were too many cars may be involved in a DE. For example if you can (throwing numbers out here) break even at a track with 100 drivers at $250 but the track can support 140 drivers with 4 run groups with 4 session each that might be a good cut off. This makes a 'profit' of $10K for the club assuming thye get 140 drivers of course). Now if you push it to 200 drivers and cut back to 3 sessions that are crowded......well, I think this goes back to the genisis of this thread and is a bit of a drag.

I think if you go back a few posts to the one from the Hudson Valley member you will see where he states that they made a conciese decision to do just what I said. That is to limit the DE's to a point where there is plenty of high quality track time.

As for contributing...I plan to. I will be instructing next season and am getting more and more involved with my region all the time.

Cheers.

Jamie