Techno Duck

Word on the street is Santa is dropping off a Brey Karuse harness bar in December for my 944. I did a search about using harnesses with stock seats on my car, however i still have a few questions and would like to get this done correctly for obvious reasons

I am interested in using harnesses mainly for autocross and eventually in a few years possibly DE's. No club racing or racing in general for a long time. I have stock sport seats right now and frankly cant afford a set of proper race seats.

Which would be a better harness to run, a 5pt or 6pt? Also what width is best? I am a fairly skinny guy if that means much in deciding. Im 5'11'' and 150 pounds.

I was curious, what size eyebolts would i need, the long or short ones from Racer Wholesale? Im not 100% sure which way i want to mount the belts as i would like to retain the rear seatback and leave it in the down position (i like the sort of privacy for things in the back). So i figure that means attaching the belt ends directly to the bar? I am aware you should get a belt with a strap that runs across the chest, would these be accepetable?



or in 6pt



Can anyone provide pictures if you have a similar setup? I appreciate the help and advice!

Noel

You could use them for autocross but definately not DE. In fact, my region of the PCA (NorthEast), just changed its rules for next year. They will only let you use harnesses if you have a proper racing seat.
However, if you want to use them for autocross until then, I would get the 6-point and mount the ends of the crotch belts to the lap belt anchors and run them from behind the seat.

mitch236

I'll give you my opinion about what looks like a shoulder strap cincher. Don't use it unless it will be behind your head. In a crash, your torso will come forward allowing your neck to slide along the shoulder belts only to be stopped by that cincher which could cause injury or death. Be careful.

As for stock seats with harnesses, I am whole heartedly against that combo.

M758

There is a growing movement against stock seats and harnesses. It has to do mostly with compromised mountings of shoulder harness and keeping them on shoulder with high back seats.

Also a factor is actual mounting points of these straps.


While I applaud the folks working to increase safety seats are VERY expensive and a major compromise. Especially when you need to get two sets (one for driver and one for passenger/instructor too).

So that will force lots of folks to stay with the stock 3pts much longer. I had been of the impression that a harness even without proper seats, but just a guide bar was superior to just the Std 3 point. That seems to be changing now.

While I have no evidence it seems that many folks are starting to believe in 3pts are better than missing any one part of the combo. (harness/seat/bar)

Something to think about before buying a harness.

ninefiveone

The sub belt prevents the lap belt from riding up your hips, and hence, from your neck ever making contact with a sternum strap.

Prevailing wisdom is that if you do plan to run harneses with stock seats, it should be a six point with a sternum strap.

Six point so that you can mount the sub belt like a parachut harness to control your pelvis along with the lap belt.

Sternum strap to keep the shoulder belts properly located since a stock seat doesn't have pass throughs.

mitch236

The truth about high performance driving is, with the possible exception of the novice driver, it requires safety equipment. Many safety items work as a unit with harness/seat being one example. The days of showing up in your street car and tracking it are ending. In the future, I see required safety equipment being mandated that will all but eliminate the street car from the track. If you are serious about being on track and run with the upper groups, you should be thinking about a dedicated track car. I know it is an expensive proposition but so is tracking. The other option is to outfit your street car to include proper seats, harnesses, roll bar and fire extinguisher.

Z-man

Ok - I ran with a stock seats, six point harnesses, and a harness bar for a couple of years in AX and DE. While I agree that it is a compromise, I never had any issues with the setup. Then again, I never had to test the effectiveness of my setup either! Nowadays, I have a rull rollbar, race seats and harnesses - that is definately a better solution, IMHO The use of harnesses with stock seats is definately not optimal. (Why do you think I switched over to a rollbar/racing seat setup?! ) If you are shorter than 6", there can be a greater possibilty of the shoulder harnesses slipping off your shoulders in the event of a collision. But 5/6 point harnesses will keep you in your seat much better than a 3-point setup.

That said, my region allows the use of harnesses with stock seats. Techno - you may want to check with your region (Metro NY, I presume) before getting your setup done, to be sure they too, will accept your setup.

That said, this should help you get started:

The procedure is pretty straightforward: (Note: these are directions for a 6-point setup, where the shoulder harnesses and outer lap harnesses can be removed)

1. Mount harness bar - it bolts to either the stock seat belt anchor points on the B pillar or the C pillar.

2. Get the following hardware. (Note: you can get these from racerwholesale.com or stable-engeries.com)
- Six Snap hooks:

- Six Eye bolts: (The short ones are fine)

- Two 3" bolt ends:

- Eight 3" slider bars:

- Four 2" slide bars:

- Four 2" bolt end's:


3. Harness Setup:
- Attach snap hooks to the ends of the shoulder harnesses using the 3" slider bars. Note: make sure that you follow the instructions on how to properly weave the harness material through the slider bar - it must be looped over a final time to ensure the material won't slip through the slider bar.
- Attach snap hooks to the OUTER lap harnesses using 3" slider bars. (Driver's LEFT side lap harness; Passenger's RIGHT side lap harness)
- Attach the 3" bolt ends to the INNER lap harnesses using 3" slider bars. (Driver's RIGHT side lap harness; Pasenger's LEFT side lap harness)
- Attach the 2" bolt ends to either end of the sub-belts using the 2" slider bars.

4. Car setup:
- Replace the rear seat belt anchor point bolts (located on either side of the seats) with eye bolts.
- Replace the outside front seat belt anchor point bolts with eye bolts as well. Note: these are found in the inner side of the rocker panel.
- Remove seats. Attach inner lap harness to inner seat belt anchor point (The end bolt attaches underneath the bolt)
- Attach the 2" bolt ends attached to the sub-belt underneath the front bolts that hold the seat rail to the bottom of the car.

5. Final setup
- Bolt seat back in place, with the sub-belt anchored underneath the seat rail
- Attach the outer lap harnesses to the eye bolts attached to the seat belt anchor points (inner rocker panel)
- Loop the shoulder harnesses over the harness bar, and attach them to the eye bolts via the snap hooks. (Note: some feel that it is safer to attach the shoulder harnesses directly to the harness bar, while others feel it is better to loop them over the harness bar and attach them the way I describe. My personal take - don't mount a harness to something that is attached to the car via only two points, like most harness bars are!)
- Adjust length of all harnesses to enable proper tightening of the harnesses.

Notes:
- This setup will allow you to retain the use of your stock seat belts - this is good because most 5/6 point harnesses are not DOT legal.

Any questions?
-Z-man.

M758

Looking more closely at that G-force harness... I saw something interesting.

The "H" strap. It appears that the H-strap is a completely seperate strap. That is to say that it is not stiched to either shoulder strap.

It seems to me that if you put the H part of the strap infront of the headrest, but right behind your neck you can prevent the straps from coming off the shoulder. It apprear that this H would funtion just like holes in a seat and keep the the straps on your shoulder.

Now if that is the case then I PESONALLY would be just fine with that type of shoulder arrangement. For the bottom I would use 6 point and mount it "parachute harness" style. This would keep it from interferering with the lack of hole in seat base.

The only concern then would be the length of the shoulder straps and elogation and the strength of the harness guilde bar.

I do believe the PCA is looking at this issue and may be very well institute a national DE standard with respect to harnesses and seats.

Techno Duck

Hey, thank you all for the information. I will have to shoot an email to the Metro Region tech guys to see what they is a acceptable setup. I wouldnt mind running a more race oriented seat, but there goes using my car ever again driving my parents, sisters and lady friends. They hate having to climb in and out with the bolsters on the sport seats as is.

It seems strange asking tihs, but does anyone have a picture of someone (or yourself) in 6pt harnesses in the 'parachute harness' style? I am having trouble invisioning what is meant by this.

And Z-Man, thanks for that writeup. Very helpful!

kurt M

You can set up a 6 point system on many stock seats that will produce a system that is safer than stock. You can also set one up that will be less safe. Is it as good as with race seats? No. Is it better than 3 point? I could or it could not. Like anything you have to do it right and use the right materials and methods.

For the most part fixed chest, H or sternum straps are not wise. I have seen add on straps that ride down on the sport seat back that hold the chest straps in the same position as most race seat holes do. You can even cross the chest straps behind the seat. This will cause the straps to pull in under tension.

There are often many ways to do something and some do work.

BTW I hope that rules making you mod a modern car in order to drive DE at instructed levels never come to pass. Where will the Green students come from? DE will suffer for a rule that just might not make a statistical difference other than to reduce the number of data points.

SundayDriver

1. I suggest you take a look at some crash videos before you start making absolute statements about the ability to not hit a sternum strap.

2. I disagree that you are quoting prevailing wisdom about using a sternum strap. What experts are the source of that wisdom?

3. 6 point belts do not automatically give you parachute harness mounting. There is far more to it, and to do that properly requires a special type of sub straps and lap belts.

camber799

Don't do it. The seat will separate the straps sufficiently that your torso, which can bend into a U-shap in a crash will slip out from betwen the straps. If you decide to install seats which accomodate harnesses you will want to consider using 6 pt. They have proven to be better in sled tests. The best approach is to start by putting in a roll-bar. Then install seats that can accomodate harnesses, then install the harnesses.

The reason I suggest this course of action is that there is a theory that in the event of a roll-over the harnesses will restrain your upper torso in such a manner that the roof collapse could crush you. There is no place for your head to go. I don't know if this theory has been tested scientifically but it does deserve some consideration.

I have recently purchased harnesses that have a 2" lap belt which is claimed, through testing, to be safer than the 3" variety. The lap belt is supposed to be in contact with bone. The wider variety makes that difficult to achieve and your surrounding organs may be threatened as a result.

If you only plan on doing AX then a harness bar with harness-friendly seats will do the trick. I think you'd probably be better off to get a CG lock and start saving for a roll-bar so that you are properly funded by the time you start DE.

As for hardware, I would discuss this with the harness mfgr. directly.

Food for thought...

Techno Duck

All advice duely noted. I guess i will send a anonymous note to Santa telling him to deliver a CG-Lock instead, I just did some reading up on it and it seems to be in pretty high praise. Also may invest in a torso harness, there is actually a guy in my region that uses one of these. Seems to work well for him. Its a shame i need to wait until March to test anything new out though...

James-man

Interesting thread!

Does Santa know what a CG-Lock is? I am pretty sure he knows what a halon fire extinguisher is, but you might need to explain what you want. Heck, even I don't know what a CG is.

Care to elaborate for Santa and, well, me?

Techno Duck

James, you wouldnt happen to be Santa would you? Or maybe your one of his Elf's doing research? Dont worry, ill keep that on the D-L

http://www.cg-lock.com/index.html

Next Christmas i may be asking for a Rennline Rennsport roll bar. I hope you Elf's can weld and have a mandrel pipe bender! Who knows, maybe Santa will have a rollbar and harnesses on the sleigh next year.

Santa