RedlineMan
I think your perspective on the issue makes sense, as does your suggestion for adding a sub for my wife. Do you have specifics on where to get the type of sub you suggest? Thanks.

 

Not arguing, just voicing my opinion as to why I believe what I believe, based on what folks have told about different seat belt/harness systems, and what I've seen and read out there.

I've never stated that gbaker is wrong - just sharing my thoughts. If he and others prove me wrong, so be it. I will accept that. So far, there has been discussion on the different setups, but no one has proven which is best. Frankly, with all the variables, it is difficult to determine that. That said, I think it is safe to say that a properly mounted 5/6 point harness set coupled with a racing seat and a good H&N restraint is the best measure of safety one can take in terms of seat/harness setup.

Also: if three-point systems are less effective than a 4-point harness setup, then why are 3-point systems an acceptable restraint system, while 4-point harnesses are not in PCA DE's?

38D: Do you have anything to contribute to this thread besides a snide remark about my post?

-Z-man.

 

No one says the rules make sense. Personally, I don't think the sub strap does squat in upright seats like ours. I have personally crash tested my theory at Lime Rock, and the sub strap did nothing. I know this because I used to keep the the sub strap very loose in my former 914 (seriously, you could have put a whole roll of toilet paper in between me and the strap) and I didn't submarine at all.

As far as setup goes, I think anything less than a full cage with real padding, one piece racing seat and proper rails, harnesses, H&N device, racing suit and a cool suit for the hot days is sub optimal. I got lucky in my crash and don't plan on taking that risk ever again. There are too many people out there who think they have it "under control" and won't crash, so they don't concentrate on the safety side. Well believe me when I say that you don't want to be wondering if you have the right equiptment as you are heading dead into the wall at 80mph (and then are inverted).


I was just stating the facts. It's like arguing about turbos with Kevin, engine building withe Stephen at IA, or Motec tuning with Geoffrey...just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If someone who's only ever used a PC started telling you about large scale disk arrays and how to do a backup and DR, you probably wouldn't take their view too seriously, now would ya?

 

The right equipment for a dead on header into a wall at 80 MPH is a coffin in a herse...

 

Bah, I'm still kickin'!

 

Yup.... that's me.... I never make a mistake.... however I do like to practice my spins frequently.... just to keep my hand in, .... and decided to hit the wall a while ago as a learning experience....

Seriously, every Sunday I see somebody hit the wall from every concievalbe angle with a containment seat, 6-points, H&N, and a cage.... and walk away disgusted....

Why use anyting less?

 

Well,
A proper cage, race seat, 6pt & H&N really suck for car that sees 90% of its miles street driving.

It is also damn expensive. To buy all that stuff for 2-3 times a year.

Yes I know "How much is your life worth?" but lets face it. People do make safety decisions based on cost. It happens all the time.

There is little doubt on the best safety gear (really there is debate, but all that is academic really).

Where the information is sorely lacking is the middle ground. Somewhere between a normal street car and full up race car.

To me there HAS to be something in between, it can't be all or nothing or it wont serve the needs of all the DE folks that take part.

 

For a car that's driven on the street, a roll cage is dangerous in the event of an accident.

Earlier someone posted that the chance of a rollover is "infinitesimally" small, let alone the chance of intrusion into the cockpit in the event of a rollover. I used to agree with this 100% until a few weeks ago when I was at a DE where a car rolled over several times. The driver was a green student doing his check ride into blue. The instructor has a broken arm, and the driver broke several bones and is facing quite a bit of rehab.

Would a cage have prevented any of these injuries? I don't know, but it certainly changes my opinion (slightly) as to the likelihood of a rollover, especially at a track that I drive on frequently. I still think the odds are very slim, but this incident reinforced the potential dangers of driving on track.

Here's my list of acceptable setups for a street car for DE, in order to preference from okay to best:

1. Stock seat belts with stock seat

2. 6 point harness with stock seat and harness bar (okay) or roll bar (better), but only if the stock seat allows the shoulder harnesses to pass directly over the shoulder. Some Porsche seats do not have a separate headrest, which prevents proper placement of the shoulder harnesses. I would not use a 5 point harness with a stock seat unless you can cut a hole for the sub belt in the proper location.

3. 5 or 6 point harness with a race seat and a harness bar (okay) or roll bar (better).

That 's just my list of what I would be comfortable DE'ing, take it or leave it. Again, this is for a street car. For a track only car, there's no excuse for not having racing seats, harnesses, and at least a roll bar.

 

Very valid point... if we could establish an set-up that clearly provided MORE protection than factory setup, it would certainly be good...

But until somebody PROVES it, I will continue to err on the side of caution.

If I look at all the scenarios associated with harnesses and stock seats, there are too many scenarios that indicate that this combination is MORE dangerous.... personally I know what my decisions are based on.

BTW... a roll bar is a valid substitute for a cage in a street car.... personally, I agree that driving a full cage car without a helment is ASKING for trouble.... however, a roll bar with stock seats is dnagerous in a hard rear collision IMHO due to breakage of the seatback

 

Pfft. That's almost easy these days, assuming you are armored up. It will hurt like hell (various broken bones) and you'll get knocked unconscious from your brain sloshing around inside your skull, but at least you'll be around to complain and tell stories.

 

All;

Regarding the sub belt over the front of the seat. Of course it is not ideal. IF it is adjusted so tight that the seat cushion must be substantially compressed to get it latched, it will do some good. Of course this will make it a b!tch to latch and mess up your seat a bit, and it won't work as good as a DIRECT belt path, but it will do something to position the lap belt for the very initial moments after impact.

It is far better to construct the cradle setup mentioned here. While this is a far less comfortable arrangement before you hit something, it will likely allow you more comfort AFTER the impact, asside from groin soreness. Personally, I'll take that over most other injuries you might imagine.

To all that say that a sub must be mounted "this way," a warning. A sub belt is not a one dimensional term any longer. When you utter those words, you must then take it one step further and qualify what type of sub, and utilized in what type of system. There are distinct mounting arrangements for the various types of subs available, and each type requires a slightly different mounting depending on what type of system it is being used with.

To say that a sub "must be mounted straight down," for instance, is patently false. What type? What system? Only when you have answered these questions FIRST, can you then make statements such as this, and then only in one case is this particular statement correct.

 

RedlineMan's Base Setup Advice;

As mentioned, this is all about playing percentages. M758 is quite keen in opining that we are talking about the middle of the road enthusiast here, and to wonder what the best setup is. Here are my thoughts.

I personally think that the odds can be managed effectively with a stock seat and a harness. It is not a perfect setup, but if properly assembled I feel it offers enough gain for the risk incurred. There are two factors that make it work for me. One is belt length. The second is a cross strap.

- You need to find a belt bar that keeps belt lengths to a minimum. I am constructing a custom belt bar right now for a girl of 5'6" for her 944. It will keep her belts acceptably short for her needs -vs- a more generic bar that may not.

- As Gregg has offered, offset hits peel the belts off of shoulders. For that reason, I now feel an H-strap shoulder set is mandatory for stock seat employment. These will give you the best chance of holding the straps in close proximity in an offset hit.

1) Solid belt bar with short belt paths.
2) H-strap shoulder belts.

Add an H&N system, and I think you have yourself covered for 99% of what you might likely ever face. Those are good odds to me.

 

David;


This sub is made by Schroth. Willans also makes a t-sub. The rub is whether these will clip into what you have? I would be very careful to match the sizing of the clip end to the ends from your current system before I would mix and match brands.

 

John -
Regarding the H-strap - where should this be located?
- Between the seat and rollbar/harness bar?
- Between the driver and the seat?
- ??

When I was using my stock seats, I placed the H-strap between the seat and the bar. At one point, I tried to run without the H-strap in place - I noticed immediately the the shoulder harness wasn't on as snug as before - the inner one would start to 'walk' off my shoulder during cornering.

-Z.

 

Z-man,
This my guess as I would expect that set-up to keep the shoulder straps closer together on the shoulder.

THe only reason that I can think of where this may be an issue is length of excess going through the adusters on your chest.