I like ss lines vs aluminium for more durability. All the systems I have ever seen use Al tube. 99% of us will set it and forget it. We will never know if we crush a fragile al line since we won't check it. Diest makes the best looking spray heads that are directional for mounting say shifter level at the driver on the side of a shift console. I'm not so sure of the firecharger system. I like the concept but have questions. What do sanctioning bodies say about systems that do not show a pressure guage? Also, some bodies want an age of like 2yr and then a recharge and recert. Can you do that with firecharger? Their concept sounds good but does a giant co2 cartridge spray like the tested pressurized foam canister? How does firecharger work in an upside down car? about 3 years ago OMP yanked all their systems off the market becasue something as simple as the flop tubes in the canisters failed to properly eject the foam when upside down. At that time only the gas came out under pressure like a spray paint can held upside down. And TD the one spray nozzle in front of the shifter may be best supported. If the fitting comes loose after a few years of vibration and you set off the system the nozzle will shoot up in the air. A nozzle supported at the nozzle may still function even if the fitting leaks. Also, unsupported Al or SS hose crack from vibration and you system can spring a leak and reduce efficency when you need it. It's a minor point but you went through all the trouble to do a nice system so you might as well go a bit further.

 

Good point. In addition to rebuilding two engines over the winter , there are a number of smaller things I want to do to the car now that I have actually driven it on the track for half a season. For example, I want to relocate the Fire extinguisher trigger to a new panel that I fabricated on the roll bar in front of the area where the radios and HVAC controls used to be (I think). Can you install two triggers? One for the driver and one for the flaggers? If not, where is the best place to put the trigger so that people can reach it. If I am not supposed to reach into the car to trigger the system, how can I expect a flagger to do so? I am a little paranoid about having the trigger on the outside of the car. I can fight Kurt M off now or lock the car when I am not around. If he could reach it from the outside I don't think it would be too long before my car looks like one of those old Gillette shaving cream commercials.I have also considered relocating some of the aluminum lines of the fire system to make them a little less vulnerable to crushing. I guess it will not be such a big deal once I get a tow vehicle and trailer, which I hope to get before the beginning of next season, but right now I am a little worried because I put my tools and spare parts in the back of the car, and I worry about crushing one of the lines without noticing it.

I also want to redo my gauges and install big-honkin warning lights for pressures and temps right in front of my eyes. I want to rotate my electrical cutoff switch so that I don't suffer a Norm G. type failure from a marble (as if I will ever get the 44 up to speeds fast enough that I could suffer such a failure ).

TD

 

TD

A remote activate switch in conjunction with a cockpit switch is a must. I am fairly certain its required as well, for most bodies. On my 951, mine is mounted in my hood on the drivers side, right in front of the windshield. Simply drill a hole, use push button type switch. My battery cutoff pull is also located in same area.

As stated I would def support those nozzels and conceal tubing as much as possible. For the engine bay, IMO I really think you only need 1, at the fuel rail. I have 1 on my rail, 2 in cockpit, and 1 on my fuel cell. I was told that is the ideal setup.

For everyone else, I have a Halon system that is now in need of recharge. Gonna replace verses recharge. Lets do a GROUP BUY maybe???? I am leaning toward an AFF with SS lines. Dont really know how to get a Group Buy going though. Any suggestions anyone?

 

I dont think flaggers look to engage the onboard fire systems. (I never did, and I put out a few in my day... However, I have turned off the electric, to kill the fuel pump...)

Typically flaggers carry a 5 or 10# dry chem (corosive) bottle, and use that.

if thats not enough theres nomally a fire truck with several big bottles (tanks) and a team of trained fire fighters. But they are positioned at one or two places on the track, so it could be a few minutes away.

If I am on fire, nothing else matters but getting me out of the car. period.
I can always get a new car.


I would recommend keeping or having a 2.5 or 5# handheld bottle you could use to put out a fire.

At the last fire I can remember, a 2002 was burning when it pulled in to our station. (fuel fire in / under trunk), I had just about used up my 10# bottle, and was calling for the fire truck, when the driver got out, opened the trunk and killed the flames with his bottle.

Since he was wearing nomex, he was much better prepared to fight a fuel fire then me. (I was not about to open the trunk, without nomex or more fire bottles) The car was towed in and later reentered the race. (podium finish, as I remember, in 2002 longest night enduro).

 

What about fireaide 2000 systems?

 

Eric

Something that I'm real surprised about is that we have had almost no fires in the hot pit area during the refueling at club races. I've watched fuel being spilled in the front of 911s over the rotors that have got to be rather warm and yet we have had almost no fires.

And how many track junkies/club racers have fire bottles in their trailers or better yet have them sitting beside the trailers so they are ready if there is a fire in the paddock. OK, so the one time I needed the Halon it wasn't out where I must have put it a hundred times but forgot. That will not happen again. Almost lost the car and me at the same time. Cold car, nobody smoking around the car, kill switch off and no one standing around with the Halon. Holding a half full 5 gallon jug of race fuel that's on fire is an attention getter. Took 5 months to figure out what caused it. Now it's nomex and Halon ready when refueling.

Bill Love

 

Rich,

That is alot of nozzles. How many lbs is your bottle? If you run a typical 10lb sedan bottle I think you have too many nozzles and when needed you will not have enough volume at any one nozzle. I think the conventional wisdom is 3 max 2 better/10lb bottle

 

M758,
Since I am working on a track equipement/suspension retail site, I have a dealer account on the AFFF system. I'm not trying to profit, but rather help a fellow rennlister who has helped me plenty. PM me if you want.
Eyal

 

Todd it is not hard to rig an outside pull cable for your system or almost any pull cable system. I have made this type of system in the past using bicycle brake cable and sleeve. Both the stock and the added cables run to the actuator and ether can cycle the firing pin without the other getting in the way.

 

Todd;
My Halon system has two triggers as described, both mechanical cable pulls - one in front of the shifter, one out on the hood. Had to be sure to put the big red "E" decal on that one - people thought it was the electrical cutoff! A firefighter friend (thanks, Kevin) gave me an embroidered red "Pull Before Flight" tag like those used on aircraft, which is now on my safety pin. SOP for all race series is to ALWAYS pull the pin before entering the track. Make it part of your grid procedure.

 

Before the fire, 5lbs. When the fire needs to be put out, 10 lbs and the foam truck from the airport.

OK, now I'm having remember all the numbers on the system discharge times. Using a Phoenix Mark 1 10 lb system with 3-3 hole discharge nozzles the discharge time will be 45+ seconds. This system was tested by SFI to their 17.1 spec.

Some other information about the other types of Suppression products. These are not meant to make Halon 1301 look better, they are just facts.
1.AFFF requires 1.5 times as much as Halon to suppress the same fire.
2.Some and maybe all AFFF products are corrosive to Aluminum and Magnesium. This is the same problem with "Dry Powder" type exstinguishers.
3.Halotron requires 2 times as much to suppress the same fire.
4.Halatron has caused damage to Lexan during testing.
Hope these info will be helpfull.

Bill Love

 

Some interesting facts I came across about Halon & AFFF (particularly, the ESS fire systems):

Halotron gives of chlorine gas when exposed to fire (see MSDS sheets)
17.1 requires that the fire be extinguished within 12 sec. and can't run more than 60 sec.
AFFF requires 2.25 liters to equal 5 lbs. of Halon (a 5.0 liter is the equivalent of 11 lbs of halon)
1301 is approved for closed areas
Halon is still one of the best fire suppressants but it is not healthy for the environment, it has been banned from being tested, will not be recertified after 12/31/06 by SFI, can blow away before doing its job if fired while the car is still moving
ESS does have a certification program that will cost only marginally more than a refill every two years
The ESS system has been tested in all orientations (upside down...) and has completely emptied
AFFF will tarnish soft metals if left to dry - the tarnish can be removed with polish with out harming the metal although it is best to just wash it off with water
A 5.0 liter ESS AFFF system will discharge through 4 nozzles (2 engine, 1 driver, 1 fuel cell) in about 40 seconds
ESS can provide a double pull activation system - pull is better than push to prevent accidental firing

Notes - Information
Infineon Raceway has been the sight of two very damaging fires in the last 3 weeks. One - a 936 caught fire caused by a leaky fuel rail in turn 3. The driver drove to turn one before stopping (1 lap) - did not fire his system, did not turn off the power to the fuel pump, and tried to put out the back end with a 1.5 pound hand held. Damage = almost a total loss of the back half of the car. The second was a baby grand with an oil fire that started in turn 4. The driver drove to turn 11 exited the course and headed to his trailer in the paddock while on fire. The fire trucks intercepted him and washed down the car with water. The fiberglass body was toast, engine cooked and all wiring melted.
When you have a fire, forget about the cost (no matter what kind of system that you have)- fire the system when you have a fighting chance of putting it out.

 

I'm in the process of installing the ESS system right now. (Bought through the Eyal group buy thank you) Can I add a second pull for the hood to my existing bottle? If so, who has the parts to do this?

 

In support of Bill Love's suggesions I can only say "I agree".

Halon 1301 is STILL the best solution.

The whole "halon will suffocate me" is a red herring. Don't put your mounth over the discharge nozzle. So some research and look at the concentrations required and consider the TOTAL environment.

Halon 1211 is also still probably the best all around extinguisher to have in the pits.

I have also considered seperate systems; 1 for the engine bay and 1 for the passenger compartment. Primary purpose to direct more agent into the engine bay area which is the most likely fire location (on my car). If you are running fuel lines through the passenger compartment ( which I think is an amazingly bad idea even using stainless braided hose) this concept would focus agent in that area. Also, if I do need to discharge and it turns out to be something repairable; the possibility exists I could re-plumb a bit and use the remaining system for the duration of that event (assuming adequate system capacity).

We recently used the 1301 system and yes, it cost about $250 to recharge including shipping etc. But it worked. There was no cleanup. And the high refill price pales in comparison to (you pick): The cost of the weekend at the track, the cost of the track tires, the cost of the gas to and from the track, the cost of the repairs to the cause of the fire.

 

I wonder what is the relative value of Halon in the engine bay and fire re-ignition vs. AFFF/water nice and cold on a really hot engine block. Are motors toast either way?

Do the ESS or Firecharger systems pass tech? There is no pressure guage to ensure pressure. Do you have to unscrew the co2 cart everytime to confirm? Is that easy or a pita?