I have casually observed many drivers and their rate of progression. I have also been told by numerous instructors that they are surprised that I have as little experience as I have because they would have assumed much more time behind the wheel.

Now, this is my basis for my "ego trip". What is your basis for challenging it? Who is out of line?

 

Over the weekend, I experimented with a new way to learn "zen" driving skills: upside down driving. By driving upside down, you cannot see the track and you are forced to rely upon your ****-o-meter and the "feel" of the car to drive quickly. You can develop increased sensitivity to pedal feel by using your hands rather than your feet. However, I must admit that installation of my ISAAC harness was rather painful.

 

Did you use speed as the benchmark for your basis for your casual observation? If you are trying to drive at the limit at the start, but they are trying to learn driving skills while driving well within their limit, then I would expect you to be faster at first.

BTW: I told the same thing to the student that I had in July . He only had 3 track days up that point but was very smooth and drove consistantly. There are lots of naturally good drivers out there (as well as bad ones).

I still think putting yourself above "most" of them is an ego trip, but you're not alone. We give new students a classroom session before the season begins, and one of the first slides reads something like "90% of males think they are better than the average driver"

I've never seen you drive, so I'm not commenting on your driving. My concern is only with making a broad assumption as the basis for anything factual.

 

TD, you copied me! I just started this last month but have only been doing it on private tracks before I brought it to rennlist. I'm going to sue as I patented the techique already.



Sjanes ... OK.

 

Well said, Larry! And to that, may I add the following concept: hitting our own limit is like hitting a moving target. As I continue to hone my driving skills, what I consider to be driving at my 8/10ths today, will become my 6/10ths tomorrow. Now Tim, you've always said that there is an absolute limit that g-sum can measure. But there is no absolute way to measure our own personal ability, since we are theoretically always improving (actually, more like moving up from plateau to plateau). And one simply cannot ignore this aspect of driving at the limit - your dynamic, personal limit.

Another point: Tim: you've got some 25 track days under your belt. But how many tracks have you played on? IMHO, seat time isn't only about days, it's also about visiting various tracks. Being able to drive one track near perfection doesn't translate to being able to drive other tracks well. But driving on various different tracks will help the driver learn to adapt to different types of corners quicker. (BTW: autocross also helps the driver develop the technique of 'adaption.')

Why do you feel that a track like The Glen is an 'expert' track. Yeah, it's a big track with lots of turns and elevation changes, but the track layout is pretty straightforward. Or do you feel The Glen is an expert track because of your percieved safety-level of the course?

I don't mean to question your ability, but I wonder if your rate of progression would have been as fast had you been driving a 'lesser' car like a Boxster, a 964, or even a 944. What used to be considered a blisteringly fast lap in a 964 a mere couple of years ago is now easily surpassed in a 996GT3 or 997S in the hands of a novice driver. The technology in Porsches these days make putting down a fast lap look quite easy.

Just my observations,
-Z-man.

 

Z:
I’ve only driven 5 tracks. I agree adapting to new tracks quickly is another skill but that one will have to wait for me.
My point with the Glen as an expert run analogy was downside if you fall (or go off track).
I can’t say for sure how my progress would have been affected in a slower car. It is my guess that I have had to learn quicker because my car is more difficult to drive near the limit (the throttle actually counts and braking is more important). I don’t consider lap times to be a good measure of my ability. I consider high g-sums an accurate measure of my ability, in any car.

 

TD,
In car video is great tool. Also if you can match lap times to laps on the video it is also very good.

In my experienced once you have learned the basics of driving fine tuning the line is the next big hurdle. They teach the school line at most DE events. This is safe line and in general works OK for all cars. It will not be the fastest for your car or really for any car. Video with correlations to the lap time will help you fine tune the line for your car.

There are places on track that to be fast you must trail brake and get the car a little out of shape. Also to be fast you need to hit your marks perfectly. This means not being less than about 6" from turn in, apex and track out points. You can see much of this from video. Plust the audio should help you with brake and trottle applications.

Once you have the line down at your favorite track the next step is to drive the car deeper in and harder. For 944 NA this means driving it very very hard with quite a bit of oversteer. A fast 944 NA on Toyo especially is sliding around in controlled fashion. You are often using the brakes to rotate the car at your turn in point allowing the car to turn faster than it otherwise would. This in turn allows greater entry and apex speeds. This balancing of the car is actually quite hard and takes time to learn. Not really sure what slidding the car looks like on G-sum (more or less?), but your laps times will show a huge improvement.

Example at my local track 1.5 mile 11 turns. Last time out. My comfortable easy pace. No sliding, but still fast. 1:16 or so. I worked with another racer in his 944 and we got his line down. His times were 1:17's. Now my qual speed was mid 1:14's. Where did that speed come from? Well my line was the same, but by letting the car get out of shape in controlled fashion in a number over corners I was able to lap quite abit faster. It was considerably more work and with much less. The other raceer turning 1:17's was not able to go fast since he is not comfortable with driving the car with it so prone to sliding off track.

I guess my point is that driving a 944 fast on toyo's especially takes driving style that you can learn from any form of data. Use the Video to help firm up the line and then just driving time to push hard to learn to be comfortable with an unstable car.

Where you can use DAS and G-sum is related to consistancy. Determine what the car is doing on you fast laps vs the slower ones. Add to this in car video and you have something.

 

Joe, how can you say where DAS and g-sum applies and doesn't apply when you haven't done it? Seriously, I find this common attitude here amazing. At least I think Mark has tried it so he can disagree from at least a partially informed basis, but unless you have, you are only guessing.

 

Tim,
I will tell you what you biggest problem is.

You have great a desire to fast highly skilled driver. That is fine. However the tool you are using is horrible. When I mean tool I don't mean DAS or G-sum or anything at all.

IT IS YOU CAR.

That 996 TT is so fast that my grandma would look fast in the car. So you clearly state the lap times are not measure of ability. I'd agree. Why? Who else has car that remotely is similar to yours? While there are some with as much hp, many with as much weight you have a car that cannot be compared to anything.

So therefore the BEST judge of you Driving ablilty is lost. Lap times and speed on the track. You are actually smart enough to realize this so you seek comfirmation of you skill in G-sum. Well that sucks too since there is nobody that uses G-sum to measure their driving skill.

Tim,
You need a different car. You need a car with less hp and something you can compare yourself to others in. I have no doubt that driving some form of "spec" car really what you need. In a car like this you can instantly see how fast you really are by looking at the other drivers in the same cars.

For me I always wanted to know how good a driver I really was. The problem was that there were always reasons why I could be fast/slower than the next guy. For me the big deal was Sept 2002. The first every 944-spec race. I qualfied on pole for both races and won both racer going away. Racing against others in similar cars final proved to me in my mind that I was "pretty good". It also gave me bench mark on my needs to be faster. Since then I have actualyl gotten much faster and lowered the track record at my home track by 2 seconds. All the while the other drivers in class have gotten faster too. For a time I was hands down the fastest driver in the class. The only time I got beat was when Chris Cervelli came in and drove a car. Even then I think would have had him in our second race if it were not for some techinal issues.

Point is with cars I could compare my speed to I could understand my real driving skills. Tim you are a car that is so unlike any other that your lap times are meaningless on the track. That fact that you get to 160 at Road America is irrelevant. The number of cars you pass in a 20 min session is irrelevant. Heck even you G-sum is irrelevant since do you really know what the max your car can do in Turn 1 at Putman really is?

At least TD with his lowly 143 hp (130 at the wheels if he is lucky) can driving knowing that he can compare to 944 cup lap times. If he sees a 911 SC he knows that he will have tough time if the driver is quite good. If he can pass a 996 he knows he has something. Even so unless he runs back to back vs a 944 cup preppared car he can't know for sure. However the chances of running with 944 cup on track in Virgina is much more likely than finding 600 hp 3400lbs 996TT to run with let alone one with a competant driver.

Tim, Buy a spec miata. You don't even need to race it. Just drive it and compare to the SM lap times at the same track. Those 6 seconds you are slower will give you a nice measure of your current skill level and also a nice goal to shoot for. It will be worth the 10k investement.

 

Joe, I largely agree with your post but you have a few errors. My car hits 165+ at RA, and I sure do know what my g-sum max is at turn 1 at Putnam. The rest of your stuff is pretty good and I am still considering a SM.

 

Regarding my post to you. I don’t make gratuitous assertions as they can be gratuitously dismissed. Debate 101.

For the above post I based my comments using the example of your self documented inability to feel the poor setup you had. This is basic stuff to an experienced driver regardless of the car in hand.

The distillation of it is you are measuring mm and missing mountains.

 

Kurt: I new the car had bad oversteer. I was guilty of not knowing how bad bad was. I didn't know if I should be able to cope with it using better driving skills or if I needed to change the setup. That is why I asked an experienced and accomplished racer who was familiar with my car about it after the second session, and why I asked him to drive it the next day. Also, while recognizing magnitudes of car setup is certainly a driving skill, how many drivers with fewer than 25 days could quickly and accurately assess that it was "too much"? Even if most could, this is one small aspect of overall "driving ability" and does this mean missing that means you are learning slower than average learner? While I accept your inexperienced claim, I reject the measurement claim.

 

This thread could go on for a long time. While this will come as no surprise to Tim, I side with the "learn to drive properly, then optimize with data collection and analysis".

Tim refers again to his habit of pinching the corner, i.e. not tracking all the way out. Experienced people knew that pinching off the exit (in the name of safety to be fair) is sub-optimal. either the speed was too low, the apex too late or some combination thereof.

A G-Sum plot may show that pinching off the corner puts the car at a high G-Sum, for example, Tim's car is still pulling lateral G's whereas another car with the steering wheel straight has less lateral G but more acceleration. Guess who goes faster? After some time, there is an agreement that max G-Sum on the correct line is the best. Fact is, how you interpret the G-Sum is crucial. A high apex speed and a low exit speed may have the same G-Sum as a technique resulting in a much higher exit speed. We know which is usually better.

To my way of thinking, learning to drive the optimal line at near optimal speeds is step one. Finding the right line and speed for any corner as well as variations on a theme can be accomplished by following faster cars and/ or getting instruction. When step one is accomplished, then data analysis can help fine tune to gets those elusive tenths - Mark called it the "golden second".

My guess is that Tim prefers to "go it alone" using data collection and review to accomplish what others do in a more conventional way. I do take issue that this is a better or faster way to learn. That hasn't been proved. I am happy if the statement is that this is Tim's preferred way, with no claims as to whether it is superior or not. Others have addressed that point so I won't bother.

Best,

 

Bob: I think you are confused as to what I am saying. If you look at my videos, I don't often not track out now. And where I don't the DAS shows it obviously. I only did that regularly when I was learning to handle the car. Now, I only do it when I am working on a new track. For example, look at turn 7 in the RA video. I am nowhere near track out and no where near the proper g-sum through that turn (a bit of a kink). Same for turn 13. I used to do it as a habit while learning the car. Now I only use it when extra safety is necessary to learn a turn I don't feel comfortable with yet.

I have said many times I do not believe my approach is better for most people. I have also said I can't prove it's even better for me, but neither can any of you prove it isn't. The fact that I've lived with myself for almost 45 years and have proven very effective at things I have chosen to become good at, tilts my self assessment way ... way ... in my favor.

 

Tim,

I agree with your statements. Surprised? My example of track-out was to illustrate that G-Sum in isolation can be misleading. When combined with segment times etc. it is a useful tool. Based on my experience (different from yours to say the least), data collection and analysis, is the last level of refinement, not the starting point.

BruceG will agree, around here a few of us who considered ourselves to be pretty decent drivers got better by simply chasing each other around in equal cars. No need to pour over print outs and a lot more fun. So, different strokes ....

Rgds,