gbaker

...or, just use whatever harness you want with a different head and neck restraint.

RedlineMan

Very Subtle, Gregg... sort of!

The issue of belt retention on the HANS is largely one of configuration, not of belt type. If one is having slippage problems, it is almost certain that the belts are not configured to optimize HANS use. This means a fairly straight path from mount to HANS, as close as you can get them (no wider than neck width), and the shortest belt path you can manage.

I use generic Simpson belts, and have had NO issues with HANS retention whatever. I feel EXCEPTIONALLY secure with the HANS on, mush less so without it, now. My car has a dedicated half-cage (rear) that was there before I got my HANS. This makes it easier, as I can put things where they need to be. It was also built right from the start, by me, of course! Nothing like custom!

If you do not have the luxury of doing custom harness attachments, and do not have to meet any sanctioning requirements, you should seriously consider taking Gregg's advice and look at other H&N devices than the HANS. Why... it just so happens that Gregg offers a pretty decent product himself!

I plan on upgrading to Schroth belts, and will likely opt for Profi II with 3" shoulders and 2" lap. I don't see the need for the 3-2 at all. Right now, 2" lap is not PCA race legal, but I would bet strongly it will be in for '06.
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Mitigating factors - Seat Hole Width-vs-Belt Length. Rockit, you have a fairly wide gap with your seat holes, it sounds like. However, it also sounds like you have a VERY short belt path. In this case, it would be my opinion that you should not cross the belts, as it will unduly cramp the belt paths and force the belts to twist a lot, which is not good. The short belt path will do a lot to keep the belts in place by itself. Crossing them that close may infringe on the effectiveness/safety of the material. Just my opinion.

And speaking of material safety, your description of your lateral belt retention sounds scary. Please make sure you have not done anything that has any chance of abrading or cutting the belt material!!!

rockitman

good point. No crossing. As far as abrasion from the hose clamps, it is not possible. I have polyuerthane strips of plastic that go under each hose clamps on each side of the belt and over the belt(one strip on top and one below). When the clamps are tightened down, the plastic strips act as a barrier between the hose clamp and the belt material itself. I am currently engineering perhaps a better deal. You abrasion point is well noted. Thanks

gbaker

Sorry about going OT there fellas--couldn't resist. My sometime-warped sense of humor frequently gets me in trouble.

I agree with John on the issue of belt slippage being limited and related to position more than fundamental design.

If you are shopping, I suggest you keep an eye out for the designs that include a ratchet mechanism in the lap belt. Guaranteed to keep snug the belt that takes ~80% of the body load.

Brian_77_3.6

I use 3" belts in my 77' 911 that are anchored to the rear seat belt mounting points and travel through guides on the roll bar that are properly spaced for the seats (and my neck size). No slippage problems with the Hans and the 3" belts. In fact they seem to help secure the Hans where the belts overlap the outer edge of the Hans on the chest. Once you pull the belts tight you dont even notice that the Hans is there.

RedlineMan

Brian;

Now clean up a glaring problem with your setup and mount your belts directly to the roll bar, not the rear seat belt points. Too long a belt path is not conducive to good post-impact HANS retention at all (not that a HANS is necessarily that good then anyway). It is a matter of belt stretch, and you stand to get a TON!

Gregg;

No problem. You were pretty subtle really, and your point WAS a very good one.

Regarding belt crossing, Schroth says that belt lengths approaching 18" should be crossed. Between 12-18 it should be considered under some circumstances. Under 12, straight is fine, but only if they are not widely spaced at the mount. In all cases, there is a balance between belt distance apart at the seat openning and distance to the mount point. Kind of a sliding scale. 12" and 3" apart? Oakyfine. 12" and 5" apart... mmmm, then narrow the mount points at the bar to 3". 16" and 5" apart? Cross them. 16" and 3" apart... mmmm, still might want to cross them. Etc...

Like everything else in the system, you are juggling more than one ball at a time to keep the whole thing in the air.

Brian_77_3.6

John,

I am aware of the issue of post impact belt stretch. However the way my car is configured the distance between the seat back and the cross bar of the roll bar is barely enough to fit the webbing of the Sabelt harness that connects the two sides between the seat and the roll bar. (DAS Sport rollbar and Corbeau seats) I have discussed this with Dougherty's and have even suggested cutting out the cross piece of webbing to attach the belts to the bar. They said no, leave it set up this way. Have 18" of belt between the roll bar and anchor points. I agree with you however that I do not think this setup is optimal and am investigating alternatives.

Plavan

These look like three inch belts, Regardless- I went with an R3 instead of the Hans. Coke and Pepsi. I made my choice after seeing these pictures of the Hans device failing in sled tests.
FYI- I have been to one of his seminars.... Dr. Hubbard is trying to "sell" something too.

fatbillybob

Now that is one scary set of photos fr a HANS userlike me. Is the first picture a 30 degree offset or a less than 50G side impact? And did the dummy"die" in this series?

RedlineMan

Ummm...

A perfect example of bullshirt, false, underhanded, misinforming, devious advertising. Note how carefully the R3 guys outlined the HANS device to show that it came out from under the belts? How nice of them. Too bad they didn't bother to keep going with their highlighting. They knew that most people would not be observant enough to note that the HANS dummy tested using a park bench while the R3 was tested using a SUBSTANTIAL Halo seat.

Seeing is believing, but only if you look!

Plavan

Umm... Do you have a Halo seat? Plus, the R3 does not have any belts to slide off, Halo seat or not. The Hans did come off the belt with a side net.
Regardless of what you may think of the picture, it shows what can happen. The fact is, It can't happen with an R3.

rockitman

Looks like a good sales pitch by R3, but I don't buy it. They are not reflecting the Hans in a fair, unbiased light. Not saying anything wrong with the R3...but I think we are splitting hairs as far as safety between the two, imho....They both are good.

Plavan

Coke and Pepsi is what I say.

rockitman

gotcha !
If you instruct, R3 is the way to go...for riding in the 3 point belt cars...

gbaker

FBB, I'm surprised you haven't seen this before. The guy on the left is a gonner. The other two probably made it--without numbers it's hard to tell.

The point they are trying to make is that if you lose the belts you'd better not have any subsequent impacts, because you then have no HANS and loose belts. I've heard that the in-car video of this happening (which I have not seen) is rather ugly.