The 'Golden Second' - what is fast, what is slow?
10-11-2005, 10:22 AM
#1
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The 'Golden Second' - what is fast, what is slow?
When you are within a second or so of what a car can do, you know it. The 'Golden Second' is when you are within a second of the car's limit. You can feel the weight shift at every point on the track. You are aware of changing grip levels. You are wondering, at each and every corner, if you are going to make the turn. At each threshold braking zoneyou are going as deep as you can while keeping the car in balance. Often your mind is cursing at the car because it handles like a POS but you are going to make it do what you want.
Your lap time tells you where you are - not Data Aq, not video and not your Internet buddies telling you how fast you are.
But what is 'slow'? We have an entire thread and challenge over that concept. We even have people claiming that 10-15 seconds off a car's capability is not slow, but it is not fast either. When I started racing SRF's and was running at the very back of the pack, it felt like I was driving fast. But at 10 seconds off the pace, I knew I was slow and didn't feel a need to launch Internet challenges. Rather I stayed out there and got less slow. At 5 seconds off the pace, I could start to understand more of what I really needed to do. At 2 seconds you realize the diffences in driving skill is very, very small vs. the front guys (compared to where you have come from).
But even if you get into that magic range, and can compare yourself against the best challengers you can find, you also understand that there is a skill level so far beyond you, that you can not really comprehend what that entails.
Of course, it is all relative, but how YOU define 'fast' and 'slow'. How do you know if you are a fast driver vs. driving a fast car way off the pace (the 'I am fast on the straights' syndrome)?
Your lap time tells you where you are - not Data Aq, not video and not your Internet buddies telling you how fast you are.
But what is 'slow'? We have an entire thread and challenge over that concept. We even have people claiming that 10-15 seconds off a car's capability is not slow, but it is not fast either. When I started racing SRF's and was running at the very back of the pack, it felt like I was driving fast. But at 10 seconds off the pace, I knew I was slow and didn't feel a need to launch Internet challenges. Rather I stayed out there and got less slow. At 5 seconds off the pace, I could start to understand more of what I really needed to do. At 2 seconds you realize the diffences in driving skill is very, very small vs. the front guys (compared to where you have come from).
But even if you get into that magic range, and can compare yourself against the best challengers you can find, you also understand that there is a skill level so far beyond you, that you can not really comprehend what that entails.
Of course, it is all relative, but how YOU define 'fast' and 'slow'. How do you know if you are a fast driver vs. driving a fast car way off the pace (the 'I am fast on the straights' syndrome)?
10-11-2005, 10:35 AM
#2
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Mark:
The way I determine whether or not I am doing it right on the racetrack is simple. At a given track (ex: Summit Point) I take a look at the times of a few guys who I know are fast, driving other PCA E and F class cars. If I get within a second of their times, I am happy and in my mind, I am doing something right since these other guys' results and reputations speak for themselves. The timesheets don't lie.
The way I determine whether or not I am doing it right on the racetrack is simple. At a given track (ex: Summit Point) I take a look at the times of a few guys who I know are fast, driving other PCA E and F class cars. If I get within a second of their times, I am happy and in my mind, I am doing something right since these other guys' results and reputations speak for themselves. The timesheets don't lie.
10-11-2005, 11:12 AM
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The only true test of ability is racing against others in a spec series. As long as everyone adheres to the rules (ha!!) it should be a test of talent, not just driving but the ability to get the car setup quickly and efficiently as well.
For me, since I don't race, my friends are setting up our own "spec series" DE. We all have fairly stock (we all did ROW springs, roll bar/harness/seats. Any safety equipment is allowed). We also run the same rubber which saves money (MPSC). Now, maybe we are all slow but at least there is a guage to help. I also compare my lap times with the club racers in my class.
Let's face it, none of us are fast when the yardstick is F1 but when you set your goal at some reasonable level, you can see your progress.
For me, since I don't race, my friends are setting up our own "spec series" DE. We all have fairly stock (we all did ROW springs, roll bar/harness/seats. Any safety equipment is allowed). We also run the same rubber which saves money (MPSC). Now, maybe we are all slow but at least there is a guage to help. I also compare my lap times with the club racers in my class.
Let's face it, none of us are fast when the yardstick is F1 but when you set your goal at some reasonable level, you can see your progress.
10-11-2005, 11:15 AM
#4
Race Director
This is one great reason to race in a spec class. The cars are the same so the only excuse for being slow is the driver. It is always easiest to blame this that or the other thing for being "slower" on track than the next guy. In a spec class those excuses really are like A#@holes. Everone has them and they all stink.
Sunday... I am sure you first few SRF Races were a real eye opener. I know that is the case for ALOT of new 944 spec racers.
Sunday... I am sure you first few SRF Races were a real eye opener. I know that is the case for ALOT of new 944 spec racers.
10-11-2005, 11:16 AM
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IMO the closest answer to truth would be racing a spec car at a national level and being on-pace. Short of that, the best I feel I can say about my car (I've only raced one type, ever) is that I'm close enough to the pace of the polesitter that I can keep in sight and keep myself happy - that I'm not holding the car back too much. But I watch the video of the guys who beat me, see how sloppy their driving is, and know that I'm still not fast enough. Even though I've won races (and by one measure that is fast enough - slow enough to still stay in front of all the other guys to the checker), I know there's better cars and drivers out there - who I hope to some day be able to share the track with. Even when I've had overall lead (across a 2-class run group), I've been slow. Slow enough to not miss any marks, lose control and go off-track - fast enough to stay in front for the last few remaining laps.
How slow is slow? Or, put differently, when does fast enough become too slow? I've worked with a number of definitions. First it was, I'm not slow anymore when I don't get lapped in a 14mi sprint race. Then it was, I can stay in sight with the guys in front and maybe even race them. Then it keeps stepping up - within 5 sec of the leaders' lap times... then good enough for a top 5 finish. Now I find that if I'm more than a second off the pace, I'm too slow.
Good thing my car isn't!
(Someday I hope to be able to get 95% or better out of my car on a good day, not just when it's going poorly)
How slow is slow? Or, put differently, when does fast enough become too slow? I've worked with a number of definitions. First it was, I'm not slow anymore when I don't get lapped in a 14mi sprint race. Then it was, I can stay in sight with the guys in front and maybe even race them. Then it keeps stepping up - within 5 sec of the leaders' lap times... then good enough for a top 5 finish. Now I find that if I'm more than a second off the pace, I'm too slow.
Good thing my car isn't!
(Someday I hope to be able to get 95% or better out of my car on a good day, not just when it's going poorly)
10-11-2005, 11:21 AM
#7
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
Of course, it is all relative, but how YOU define 'fast' and 'slow'. How do you know if you are a fast driver vs. driving a fast car way off the pace (the 'I am fast on the straights' syndrome)?
The average pros is faster than the average club racer
The average club racer is faster than the average DE red run group driver
The average red run group driver is faster than the average black run group driver
The average balck run group driver is faster than the average white run group driver
The average white run group driver is faster than the average blue/yellow run group driver
The average blue/yellow run group driver is faster than the average green run group driver
So unless you are a podium pro, you are not fast in absolute terms.
Driving is just like golf: the better I get, the more I realize how much I have left to learn.
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10-11-2005, 11:21 AM
#8
Laptimes. Its all about getting around the track faster than the other guy. Period.
I think the difference between the top guys and the guys about a second or so off pace is consistency, not raw driving skill. I know I can take any turn as fast as the fastest guy... but not every single lap.
The top guys do lap after lap within a few tenths... the next tier guys laps vary 1/2 or 1 second lap to lap. Over the course of a race if I screw up 1 or 2 turns a lap, and the guy in front screws up 1 turn every other lap, he's going to be over the horizon by the end of the race.
I think the difference between the top guys and the guys about a second or so off pace is consistency, not raw driving skill. I know I can take any turn as fast as the fastest guy... but not every single lap.
The top guys do lap after lap within a few tenths... the next tier guys laps vary 1/2 or 1 second lap to lap. Over the course of a race if I screw up 1 or 2 turns a lap, and the guy in front screws up 1 turn every other lap, he's going to be over the horizon by the end of the race.
10-11-2005, 11:27 AM
#9
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After catching up on the latest in the Challenge thread (having been gone all weekend), the simplest, most straightforward answer to Mark's question finally occurred to me. Just as in the subject of knowledge:
Once you understand how slow you are... you have finally learned how to go fast.
Ommmmmm....
Once you understand how slow you are... you have finally learned how to go fast.
Ommmmmm....
10-11-2005, 11:52 AM
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Dave Schardt drove my car at Putnam and apparently I have misplaced seven or eight of those Golden seconds !
10-11-2005, 12:13 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
38D,
I'm definitely a newbie, but I'd argue that the run group comparison for DE is pretty inaccurate. I usually try to use run group and somewhat comparable car in my self-evaluation. My 944 Turbo feels really fast, but when I watch 996 Turbos hit warp speed down the straight, I realize that there are faster cars. It's when the guy(or girl) in the 944 N/A starts breathing down my neck in the corners that the existence of faster drivers becomes known.
I'm currently fast enough to know that I'm pretty slow.
-Jon
I'm definitely a newbie, but I'd argue that the run group comparison for DE is pretty inaccurate. I usually try to use run group and somewhat comparable car in my self-evaluation. My 944 Turbo feels really fast, but when I watch 996 Turbos hit warp speed down the straight, I realize that there are faster cars. It's when the guy(or girl) in the 944 N/A starts breathing down my neck in the corners that the existence of faster drivers becomes known.
I'm currently fast enough to know that I'm pretty slow.
-Jon
10-11-2005, 12:27 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
JCPS is right. There were a few guys at the Glen club race that were somewhat close to Henzler in terms of fastlap, but Henzler can do that almost every lap (and I bet he still has more) whereas the club guy was giving it 110%.
Another point is who you compare yourself to. If you're winning a stock class with only a few cars in the field and think you're fast, then go spec racing and can't break the top half...
Another point is who you compare yourself to. If you're winning a stock class with only a few cars in the field and think you're fast, then go spec racing and can't break the top half...
10-11-2005, 12:29 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Jon, I was never passed in DE when I drove a 200hp 911 with the turbos. I see what Colin is talking about. Although truthfully I wish I never did DE now, as I drive a spec race car like a whimp. But just give me a full year to change the mindset... haha!
10-11-2005, 12:39 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
MJR,
I'm getting better, my last event at Tremblant, I managed to reel in most of the cars in the White group, including a 944 Turbo S on R-comps ( I'm still on streets). Quite a few instructors were running with White, and I'll be damned if I can catch those guys, yet.
I have no delusions of grandeur, but I feel like I'm doing pretty well. Hopefully, next season will be my break-through year (I know I was leaving at least 5-6 seconds on the table at Tremblant).
-Jon
I'm getting better, my last event at Tremblant, I managed to reel in most of the cars in the White group, including a 944 Turbo S on R-comps ( I'm still on streets). Quite a few instructors were running with White, and I'll be damned if I can catch those guys, yet.
I have no delusions of grandeur, but I feel like I'm doing pretty well. Hopefully, next season will be my break-through year (I know I was leaving at least 5-6 seconds on the table at Tremblant).
-Jon
