earlyapex

All I have to do is look at the winning lap times for cars in my class and I know I am slow. Got to compare apples to apples or in my cases snails to snails. At least I can comfort myself knowing that I'm not the slowest in my class so I'll eventually pass someone!

SundayDriver

Great comments guys and interesting insights. There are certainly many drivers at a skill level we can not really comprehend. I have been lucky enoug to have ridden with two of them and the rides have been like no other. They re-defined smooth. Short of that F1 level (both were former F1 drivers), I have some insight into the skill levels of the mere mortals. I have had the pleasure of racing against guys and gals who have gone on to pro racing. Those I have been competitive with have been able to run mid pack in places like Grand Am (DP), Speed GT, etc. OTOH, some 'kids' who ran circles around me are mid pack racers in Formula Mazda Pro, F3, etc.

One thing that has not been mentioned is to put a known fast driver in your car and see how they do. If you have data aq, then you can also see WHAT they do. When I have been 5+ seconds off the pace, there are differences in line and everything else. To me, 5 seconds off is slow. At 3-5 (approx) seconds, it is mostly about exit speed - data has consitently shown that. Once you get within 2 or 3 seconds, it is about entry speed. That final second is mid corner speed. Then the challenge is to be able to do that lap after lap after lap. At 2 seconds, I found that I could do any part of a track as well as the faster guy, but I would follow that up with a mistake they did not make.

The wisdom I recived from some great coaches is to work first on line, then exit speed and then entry speed. That advice has served me well. That advice came from one of the former F1 drivers, so I suspect he knows what he is talking about.

Again, to me, 10 seconds off the pace is slow. It is the pace where most can understand that they are, in fact, slow. Most people who are slower than that fail to understand how slow they are. From 10 seconds onwards, you tend to find others who are a couple of seconds faster that you can chase and learn from. If they are students, then you continue to chase them as they also get faster. If they are *******, then you find someone else to chase that is a bit faster.

924RACR

Thanks, Mark, for the perspective from the "deeper end"... when we're stuck with our narrow little perspectives in our small playing fields, it's sometimes helpful to get a larger perspective on the whole game in order to find a different approach, when needed, to get better. Just like breaking out of the rut and hitting a bigger track...

RedlineMan

Hey G;

Of course, you knew that I knew that you knew that I knew that... right? Anyway, of course there are different kinds of speed. The guy that thinks he's fast because he goes 150 on the backstraight at Gonzo Motorsports Park is all full of himself until a guy who is a better DRIVER takes his car and goes 160. Where did he get that speed? Form the previous corner, of course. He was a better driver where it counts; in the corners.

But you knew I knew that you knew that...

Also good points raised about motivation being a large factor. As a couple mentioned, the DE format is not conducive to racing. Duh. The motivation comes from catching that guy, or keeping him behind you. Subconscious speed happens in those circumstances, just like the woman who lifts her car to get her trapped baby out from under it.

You don't think, you just do what is necessary. Afterwards, you skid in your shorts!

JPhillips-998

Sunday your comments re:the pro driver are exactly what I had in mind. While it is hard to argue that a car lapping at 1:15 is "faster" than a different car lapping at 1:20. Setting a baseline for the cars eliminates the variables of tire, set up,engine performance being off for the given day etc.

Also I agree that 10 second off the pace is slow everywhere but moreso on short tracks. Putnam may be 3 or 4 seconds. Mid ohio maybe 4 or 5 and road america 6 or 7. Its all relative that's why I like the percentage of car capability.

I didn't want to get too invoilved in the other thread but when this option was presented it was met with something like"too many variables". I didn't push but still don't see what the variables would be

RedlineMan

Mark;

I'm glad you're back, man. But, I doth repeateth myself.

forklift

This thread is of great interest to me as I often (too often I think!) wonder what my car is capable of with a real pro behind the wheel. I would really like to know how far off I am. My car is "modded" kind of weirdly to compare it to others in the PCA race results. I would think my car would be in C due to the Autothority MAF, but then I run Toyos and PSS9s instead of Hoosiers and Motons (w/ stock flywheel and gearing). It is not apples to apples with other RSAs/C2s I don't think, but would qualify well in C w/ the Toyos at Summit.

I had Levitas ride shotgun a few months ago, I guess I should have thrown him the keys. Ivan A. drove it, but my car was understeering so badly that day and he was cursing it (Levitas said it was too loose though). It is more neutral now and would like to have it driven around Summit to see how far off I am.

As for timers, it is a good way to see improvement or lack thereof. Only a few things better than looking down and seeing a new "best".

SundayDriver

"Deep" is relative and I can see much deeper waters as well. I have been lucky to get some great coaching and am more than happy to share what I have been able to learn.

Geo

John, I wasn't trying to be critical. I was trying to take your good point and add to it. I tried to let you know I wasn't being critical by mentioning that I knew you knew what I was saying and that it was for the benefit of others.

Robert Henriksen

You know you haven't ventured into that last second (or last 3-5 seconds, I wager) if you think track conditions can't possibly change lap-by-lap.

If you're not driving at 9.8/10ths, you'd never know about those changing track conditions, as you're too far inside the car's performance envelope to feel the changes.

SundayDriver

So let's get this straight...

You knew that he knew that you knew that he thought you knew what you thought he knew, as best you can remember what he recalled.

Right?

SundayDriver

Agreed wholeheartedly.
That is another reason why driving in the rain is so beneficial to driver training. In the wet, conditions tend to change dramatically from lap to lap and corner to corner. You do not have to be as close to the edge to feel the changes and it trains you to feel it in the dry.

I can remember a lap at Mid-Ohio during a race. After about 3 corners that each felt different than the previous lap, I started to wonder what happened to the car. I glanced up to see that the sun had slipped behind the clouds. That is all it takes to change the limits and the balance of a car.

Robert Henriksen

"Use the Force, Luke!"

a4944

Once you are in advanced or instructing in a DE environment, where do you find the extra speed? I'm refering to the 5 seconds off, not the 1 golden second off. I'm still improving but at a slower rate. Here are a few things I'm working on, any other advice would be appreciated. Learning is most of the fun at DE.

* No breaks, it's easy to work hard on a couple of your favorite turns and not push so hard on some of the others. No coasting beyond a lift to shift weight.
* Pay close attention to track variations such as dips, bumps, pavement, curbing, and camber.
* Minimize steering input. Make straight lines even if you have to curb hop some.
* Short cuts. Sometime using all of the track is not the fastest. Either the car doesn't need it or there isn't enough straight after the turn to justify the extra distance.
* Experiment with gear selection, sometimes faster to stay in higher gear (maybe indirectly forcing a higher entry speed).
* Smooth on medium to high speed turns, maximize contact patch through turns.
* Perhaps not so smooth in tight turns to get rotation.
* Courage on the high speed turns.

How do you get those last 5 seconds? I would love to knock off a few seconds in time trials. I assume all of you racers push very hard from the start but still find extra speed with experience. What do you learn through that experience?

Thanks,
Mark

Geo

Let's try this again....

1) I wasn't trying to be critical.

2) Money and a lead foot are not the only reason for being fast on a straight.