M758

Sadly this attitude is what hold back progress. It may not help me so I will try to block it? What if it is good for PCA Club Racing as whole and will bring in more folks into PCA Club Racing?

I realy don't agree. If you can pull your interior and A/C then how will it cost you anything to lose 10% of the weight? What maybe $300 for a/c delete bracket and a new corner balance/aligment?

If you want to keep the interor since you it is your street car too, well do so. Nobody is forcing you pull it out and if the car around you do it they are no longer in your class.

carreracup21

It seems like there is always something else to do. Some little tweak here or there. The guys who have been racing the same car for years can end up with a seriuosly developed machine.
Last year the big contraversy was resevoir shocks, this year 10% weight reduction. Somehow I don't see this rule changing either.

Alan C.

My personal favorite is the Stock E class '88 - 89' turbo S running in D with maybe a magnesium manifold running at a weight of 2750 LB. The car usually has a straight 3" pipe from the down-tube to tail. It's a Rothmans car! Sans cat, nice hp increase for the turbo not much for an NA, and lower weight makes the turbo pretty tough to keep up with. Take a stock 88-89 turbo and take out 10% and you have pretty much the same car. So if you have a porker 95 993 you will have to learn to peddle harder

carreracup21

I don't think I'm holding back "progress". I just think the rule does not make sense and it won't save anybody money. It won't open the flood gates for new racing arrivals either. We have all already made substaintial investments in our machines to fit within the rules we now have. I think you could spend a significant chunk of change reducing weight. Lexan windshield, lightweight carpet, lightest wheels, lightest exhaust, lightest battery, lightests seats, lightest tail, drilling of this and that. Everything that you are allowed to change would have to be maximized for weight savings. It's cheaper to just call a weight that everybody can hit. The stock weight. BTW, I carry around 150 lbs. of lead at least, but shaving the last 126 lbs. would be very pricey and I would have to do it or be stuck running against 2600 lb D class 968 Firehawks. It would be a riot how fast one of those would be. Or how about a 944 TC at less than 2500 in C class. Hell they are practically already the fastest C cars except they are classified as D. There is no impediment to racing your 944 in PCA as is, except it is not competitive in GT4 or whatever. Why create a bigger problem for the rest of us.

carreracup21

Hahaha, it's hilarious to think about the possibilities. Actually I think the fastest D car would be the F class 951 , double prepared with 10% weight reduction to 2610 lbs. , Turbo Cup chip= 300 hp, brakes upgrade, 2 inch wider wheels, big flares, wing ect. That car would be very very fast in D and hardly fair. BTW a prepared 951 in E class at 2899 did low 2:12's at WG this year while most of us D drivers were in the 2:13's. Now imagine that car 289 lbs. lighter at 2610. Ok how about the prepared RSA in C class running at 2760 lbs. that would now have to race against a C class US Cup at 2486 lbs. That would not even be close.

M758

Hmm were do you get Turbo Cup chip= 300 hp.

According to the PCA classing a Turbo cup as 250 hp in D at 2770 lbs. Also boost must remain stock. Where is the 300 hp coming from?

Most 944 Turbo's can get 300 hp, but not by using stock boost.

carreracup21

Well when you see a 944 TC pull you on the straight like you were standing still, you know whats up. Its common knowledge that those cars are pulling those kind of numbers ( around 300 hp easy). The F class 951 can be prepared to E class legally with a chip upgrade that puts out nearly 944 TC hp. I don't know what the boost numbers are and neither does anyone else when you go to these races. You just know that it doesn't seem right that they are pulling you.

M758

Well I don't see how that can be done with a stock legal motor.
So why point out how cars xx and yy will be too fast in another class when they my be cheating in the class they are in?


Sounds alot to me like these Turbo guys a cheating F, E, and D right now deal with that not what potentialy happens when a cheater legally lightens his car.


Hmm a turbo Cup should be at 250hp and 2770. The US Carrera Cup should be at 2760 and 247hp. Both cars should be deal even in straight line. If you are getting pulled by a Turbo Cup either he smoked you through the corner and carried more speed. Or your car is down on power, or his car has "too much" power. There are "rules" to prevent "too much" power.

Yes it is quite easy to chip a 951 and make power. But to do that you need increase the boost. That is what the chip does. Per rules running more boost is not legal.

carreracup21

Cheating might be a strong word. I just think these cars are much more powerful than billed in the "rules". Weight is the only thing that keeps it honest. You can't cheat weight, but when you allow cars to go 10% lighter there will be a lot of little "tricks" to get them there. You can bet it will open a whole new can of worms for rules interpritation when it comes to shaving weight.
BTW, anyone who has raced against a 944 TC knows exactly what I am talking about. As for the 964 US Cup, 247 hp is a joke. These cars are more than 265 hp, maybe 275 hp. I've never had mine dynoed. The engine has a factory seal so there is no cheating, but it's blueprinted dead nuts perfect on compression with matched components. It has a stock RS DME chip. The factory race cars like the 944 TC, 968 Firehawk all have little speed tricks. The prepared 951's can be chipped for E class and when they are they are as powerful as a 944 TS and 100 lbs. lighter.

M758

Why? The car goes to scales and can be at minimum 90% of the published stock weight. End of story. Just like now the car needs to be 100% of the stock weight. In fact with 250 to 300 lbs more weight on the car it makes it easiler to ballast the car for better weight distribution as you have more dead weight to move around.

Also weight does not manage cheaters. What about the folks they are competing with right now? Heaven forbid someone wants to race a 951 in F or E and follow the rules?

carreracup21

Because there will be legal changes you can make to shave weight and illegal changes. How will anyone know wheather somebody acid dipped the chassis to save 40 lbs. ? What other little odds and ends will be changed. The reality is it will get very very expensive to get down to 10% weight reduction when I believe you were arguing for cost saving.

M758

Hmm, While I am not favor of acid dipping what is to prevent someone from acid dipping the car now that would not prevent then later?

You have car that is unique in that it is already light weight.

Seems to me pretty easy to lose 300 lbs from a 993. Easier still if you can pull the interior. Will prevent someone from acid dipping. No... Then again how much is to be gained from acid dipping? What you can move 125lbs of ballast around. You can do that right now.


Bottomline is allow most any car to to pull the interior and a/c and 10% is easy to do. On my 944 I pulled some 350-400 lbs just by doing easy stuff. No need to acid dip. I still have power glass windows and full size battery.

I'd agree that if you had to keep the interior then getting to weight will be harder.

carreracup21

Because there is no need to save the weight now, but give them the chance to lose 10% and they will find a way to get there. They will have to spend bucks to do it too. I think I could get down to 2560 easily. The next 70 lbs. would be possible only through very uhhumm "creative" changes. The groaning you would hear at the scales would be very audible as certain high dollar cars made the weight. Some cars could not do this at all, like the 996's that have a very tough time just getting to the allowed 2910 lbs. Ask a C class 996 driver what he thinks he could do to get down to GT3 Cup weight ? Answer - it will never happen without lots of Carbon fiber $$$.

Alan C.

My 93 RSA pulled 260 on the rear wheels with a cup chip and 110 octane.

M758

I you are C 996 Driver and don't think you can get 10% lower then stay at your current weight and run stay in C.

By my caluculations the currnet power to weight ratios all stay the same if you move a stock class up one class and lower the weight by 10%.

Hmm.. 996 = 2910 lbs at 296 hp (using the low hp car) = 9.83 lbs/hp.

lets say you get you Carrera cup to 2484 with 247 hp = 10.06 lbs/hp.

Really the 993 RS still has the edge at 2794 at 300 hp = 9.31 lbs/hp.

However the low weight winner is the 911 SC RS 2156 lbs at 250 hp = 8.62 lbs/hp.
The ratio winner is the 993 TT heavy at 3307lbs but with a whopping 400 hp = 8.27lbs/hp.

So a Carrera cup in C would be light, but also underpowed.