Larry Herman

That is a major understatement. You can have one driver pushing the car as hard as they can, right up to the limit of the tires, on the ragged edge, and yet have another driver go faster with less risk because they are taking a better line, and are smoother with their inputs, giving the tires a better opportunity to maintain grip with the road.

Dan in Florida

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough".
-Mario Andretti

aeshultz

Well, in my last race session, sometimes the front end slid, sometimes the back end slid, sometimes they both did. Yeah, the car "handled like crap." so how come I was still slow as sh#t?
Alan

Larry Herman

Re-read post #16.

aeshultz

Larry;
Absolutely!
Alan

DJF1

I do believe that there is a happy medium between all this out of control theory. I was watching the other day a video on the net of a Supercup driver in Hockenheim. The video was great in the sence that it had a small window within the picture showing the drivers feet. So...
Lesson Nbr 1: Trailbrake in all corners up to the Apex.
Lesson Nbr 2: Immediately hard back on the throttle after the brakes.
Lesson Nbb 3: Be smooth.
Pretty much what everyone has said for years. If you spend most of your time been out of shape in my opinion you are not going fast enough either. Lurid slides and mega understeer slow you down really.If you have to manage oversteer or understeer like it or not you have to lift slightly, left foot brake or whatever you have to do to avoid a spin. That I believe takes away from the purpose of been on the throttle 100% or on the brakes as late as possible to increase your entry speed. I think the key is to be able to be ON the throttle , hopefully 100% after the apex of the corner. If at that point you can be at that magic threshold of 50rpm more and you would have to be off the throttle because your tail wants to come forward, then I think you nailed the corner.
Z-Man I believe also said something similar. I too had something similar this past weekend when I autocrossed my cabrio after 6 years. My first lap, I was out of shape, couple of really nice slides, lots of understeer and a "good lap" by the competition standards. I was running in "prepared" because my car has a simple H&R coilover, but otherwise bonestock and extra heavy... Certainly not up to the standards of some really prepared cars in my group. Next lap, I decided to really take a look at a section of the track and calm down my sliding. Result? 4 seconds off !! I was a bit shocked by my time as my competition was . I figured that the old adage, go slower to go faster is so true, so my 3rd lap I shaved half a second more and came 3rd in my class... The car was still sliding a touch, but I was able to be on full throttle at the apex, especially on the only "straight" in the course.
I actually find this happy medium a pretty cool place to be, with my favorite part been when you are approaching the track out at full throttle sliding ever so beautifully and you have maybe inches from going 2 wheels off... When I get this right it really puts a big smile on my face. Problem is that I dont get it right the majority of the time

RJay

Hmmm... I respectfully disagree with the intial premise. I'll admit that I'm probably not at the true limit an awful lot on track, but I'd say the car doesn't feel like crap until I'm over the limit. At an AX I'm at the absolute limit virtually the entire time, and although the car feels balanced on a knifes edge, it still feels balanced. There is no more beautiful feeling then a 911 in a controlled four wheel drift. Not sliding, mind you drifting.

Darren

Larry -- this is definitely the case with our Acura, and its more noticeable with a low HP FWD car I think (1 less control bc you can't throttle on oversteer, and so you take more speed in because thats the only way to get thru fast). The first time I really had the car at the limit, I came in complaining that it was oversteering in every corner that I took well -- then I looked at the lap times and I was like 3 seconds faster.

Normally I trail to the apex and then mash the gas WOT. In some turns its faster to go WOT well before the apex (e.g. Hogpen at VIR), which helps keep the tail under control.

My 911 just pushes, so its not real exciting when its at its limit...

Ken T

Back in my former days doing development for Ford Motor, they use to hire Jackie Stewart to come drive the cars and give his opinions. I was lucky engough to drive with and drive Jackie around the course many times and shoot the **** occaisonally. Once a few other engineers and I were talking with him about the current crop of drivers in F1 and their capabilities and he made this statement about driving at the limit.

"All racecars (I infer pro-level) are easy to drive 3 seconds off the pace. However, no racecar is easy to drive at its limit."

PatK-Mpls

Ok, so first off I am a little surprised to read this one from you, Larry! I've watched you drive and from my vantage point, you drive quite well. But this business about the limit is sort of obtuse...(please take this in the spirit I mean it, which really isn't bad - just a bit of ribbing)

Most people who attend track events experience the 'limit' from time to time. Most often that moment where they feel the limit is due to rather abrupt or unsettling inputs to the car. For example, a number of people who try to brake as deep as possible and then turn in very hard regularly at the 'limit' during their turn entry. The car is, in fact, being pushed (rather abruptly) to its limit. But this is not what you mean, I presume. I presume you mean at limit during braking, turn in, mid turn and turn exit. And if so, to that point, I would have to disagree. My car feels feels genuinely sublime when, on rare occasion, I get all portions of the turn executed close to the limit of the friction circle and its transients. I must admit, however, that these occasions are rare! Most often I either over slow turn entry and experience a hint of the limit at the exit or vice-versa.

Larry - If your car feels 'lousy' at some or all of the portions of the turn during the limit (given your relative driving skill) I suspect your setup is off.

DanS911

Larry, good job on the thread. Very stimulating and diverse dialog

I don't know about Larry's setup being off but a car at the limits is "work" to control. If it is going too quickly toward oversteer or understeer (not so well balanced) then it will surely be harder work and some tweeking of the suspension might help.

Well said RJay.

Adam Richman

That's funny Darren. The CRX guys I talk to say that the ITA/H4 Integras are notably more comfortable to drive - I hope to get a chance to flog one about some day to see the difference. But I am of the mindset by and large that even a twitchy, tail happy FWD racecar feels pretty solid at the limit. I tend to think the leaps-of-faith grow larger as you push the car harder but I don't think they feel like crap as you approach the edge. I too think that setup can definately play a role in the feeling of the car on-edge.

Conversely, I do think various tires can feel significantly better/worse compared to each other as you push them towards that edge.

RedlineMan

Regarding at the limit;

Often times, when a car is truly at the limit, it will look outwardly slow. The key is to look closely for the saliva exiting the driver's window in a random pattern. The car looks serene while the driver looks like a madman. THAT is "at the limit."

Most of us are at no other limit than our own.

Reporting live from Brockville, Ontario.

Darren

I guess it depends on what you mean by "feel like crap". In my case I meant that the car goes from being very tame/neutral to being slightly scarey at the limit. I like the oversteer at that point, but its a bit unsettling when the back end steps out and you just hope you guessed the speed well enough that it doesnt keep coming around.

Glen

I'll say no...