Capt. Carrera

I just sold my practically stock '99 Miata that I ran on the track. It was only a few seconds slower a lap than my current ’88 911. I loved giving students rides in it. They were always surprised. The car could scoot through the corners.

Personally, I would not recommend getting an '06. Why not? Because it has a self-booting top. Virtually every track will want you to have a stout roll bar in that Miata, which will require you ripping the top out of that nice new car. (Yes, I know you can run a Boxster in PCA DEs without a bar, but that's only because the National PCA requires they be admitted to the events. You'll need a bar in the Miata.)

I'd look for a '99 - '05 five-speed Miata. There are plenty out there with low miles for dirt-cheap. The engines are bullet proof. They’re cheap to run. You can do shocks, springs, and sways for about $1,500 in new parts. If you decide the car is too slow, a turbo will have you passing Carreras like mine. If you want to go racing, you can convert it to a SpecMiata car. (Yes, 99 to 05 Miatas can now run SM.)

Professor Helmüt Tester

Any of you guys ever driven a NASCAR-esque chassis (either Cup or Busch series car) on a road course ? I have. Several of them, in fact. Older V6 Busch car, relatively current Busch car, something else that was pretty much a full-on Cup car minus ~100hp...even co-drove an 4 hour enduro in a NASCAR-series Truck.

Think "180mph school bus".

While it certainly takes a great deal of skill to horse one of those wallowing whales around a road course at speed (and I salute the NASCAR drivers who do it well, as I'm in awe of their car control skills)...compared to a well set-up 'sports car', they are just hideous to drive. Yes, the power is fun. If it were all about power, we could all just go drag racing and save a bunch of money. And, as I firmly believe, drag racing is for morons. Any takers for drag racing ?

Re: Miatas - if you know what you are doing, you can harass Porches and Ferraris etc. all day long, and take scalps and humble the 'waxers' with great glee. But...you probably won't be able to stuff a 'full containment seat' into one, if you ever want to be able to get in or out of the car without sawing the roof off. Even with big NASCAR bars that extend all the way to the doorskin and a removable steering wheel, there just ain't a lot of room in a Miata.

ltc

I'd comment, since I own/drive one, but it's a really old car, so it's out of the running at this point it seems.........

sjanes

Tell me about it. I consider anything after 89 to be "one of those new cars"

sjanes

Well, after seeing some of the 996 wrecks in Grand Am lately (Will Nannomaker is probably still looking for his wheel at the Glen), ya gotta admit they can take a pretty good hit.

38D

I disagree. A well cared for 964 is bullet proof. The strength of the components is far superior than what you will find on a Miata. The engine and trans are far stronger than what would come in a Miata (and more expensive), the chassis is more rigid than a convertible, and the suspension beefier. Spec Miata is great because it is 1) affordable and 2) lot of competition.

If all you do is DE, you will be bored with a spec Miata after 4 or 5 event. If you go racing in it, you'll love it.

BBailey

Please don't get me started. The driving in that series has taken a decidedly downward turn over the last season. Tons of new cars plus lots of very inexperienced drivers equals the frontrunners have to take way to many chances to move back to the front while shuffling through pit stops and this leads to some pretty bad wrecks.
__________________
Brian Bailey
Autometrics Motorsports Porsche 996 - Grand-Am Cup #45
'87 Porsche 944 Turbo - PCA GT3s

Carrera51

CC:
By Greg Fishman's car. If I was in a position to do so, I would. IF it's more car than you are looking for, buy a 1993 964 that has been set up for the track. Lots of bang for your buck, and very reliable. My dad has been driving his in DEs for 7 years. Total mechanical failures, ZERO (it still on the original clutch with 94K total miles). Plus it gets double duty when I drive it as well. Fast enough that you won't get bored. A Spec Miata would be a good choice if you were looking to race.

brucegre

Hi Tim, I'll weigh in on the NASCAR car, since I have a part interest in one, have had for a year. Basically they need a full time crew because everything is a maintenance item. For example, on ours, we have the Wilwood hubs, which need to be repacked every weekend, or sooner, as they have no seals (to reduce friction). We're running a Jericho 4 speed, which is bullet proof, but we change the gear oil after every event. The motor is a carbureted stroker Chev SB, 680 HP at the flywheel, and everytime we start it we hope it won't grenade. And so on. It's a real high maintenance toy by design.

Now, it's definitely faster around Mosport than my 440 hp Cup car, and it has huge stick with those 335 fronts, and 355 rears, but it is real work to drive, and will teach you a very specific driving technique - namely brake the snot out of it to the apex to get it to rotate, then stand on it to straighten it out. Which is a lot of fun, admittedly, but only really works in these cars. Umm, the professor called it a 180 mph school bus, yeah, I think that is about right.

I think if you stick to your original goal of slower=safer, but something you can really toss around, then the Miata is sounding like the right car. And I applaud your approach in using less car to try and learn more. We should all be so sane.

Bruce

jakermc

For a guy who crunches as much data as you do, you are willing to award the 'Safest Car on the Planet' prize to NASCAR because of what you watch on TV? This doesn't sound like the most scientific way to make this determination.

Let's assume for a minute this is true. You might also ask yourself 'why'? Aren't these cars basically rebuilt before each race? Are you going to maintain your car to the same level as the ones you watch on TV?

Safety is also about accident avoidance. Didn't you also start a thread a while back about mass, stopping distances, etc.? A NASCAR boat seems to score low on these measures.

993RSCS

Tim,
I'll also put in my vote for Gregg's 993. I have a 993 RS clone track car which weighs about 2800lb. I previously tracked a 996TT with aftermarket (Ruf) coilovers. The difference in handling is night and day between the cars, with a combination of much lower weight (600 -700lb less), rear wheel drive, and no PSM. The car is an absolute joy to drive and I have learned more about car control over the last 9 months of ownership than I did from tracking my 996TT for 3 1/2 years. It is amazing how brakes are no longer an issue, whereas in my turbo it was a constant battle especially in Texas.

M758

Tim,
Driving a sub 150 hp car is a very eye opening experience. You will have so little hp that the only issue is in the corners and you can focus on them exclusively. It feel that you really learn what you what which is getting around a corner as fast as humanly possible you NEED to have LOW HP car.

Anything over 250 hp is NOT LOW HP. I learn quite a lot swapping from my "high hp" 247 hp 944 Turbo to my 147 hp 944 NA.

BTW.... Buy a spec miata and run it for 2 years. Sell it for what you paided for it and move to faster car. Those two years will teach you skills it would take 10 to learn your 996 TT or even in a 993.

You will be fustrated that you have so little hp and the only recourse you will have to carry insane speed through the corners. That will force you be good driver in the corners as it is the only way to make the cars move.

In my mind a 993 even stock is too fast
A 964 is too fast,
A 944 Turbo is too fast (plus too easy to add hp to)
A 968 is too fast

A 944S2, maybe Race prepped they can be fast
A 911 3.2 Carrera - Little fast, but not bad
911 SC - Good
944S - Good
944 NA - Best (note a fully preped 944 spec is only bit faster than a SM car)
914 - Nice, but possibly too slow (you really want at least 100 flywheel hp)

38D

You want more than a 100hp. The problem with my old 914 was that it's top speed was literally 100mph. At Watkins Glen, I would shift to 5th gear and gain maybe 50 rpms down the entire back straight. The new owner put in a 2.4L with ~140hp, and now it's much more fun.

Adam Richman

I think its disturbing how such a large number of folks are saying that one should not take a low HP car to DEs (Drivers EDUCATION) because people there will not let them pass and floor it on the straights. That stings of a HUGE breakdown in what folks are being taught at DEs. There are enough High Perf. Driving Schools out there that I'd be shopping for another group to run with.

Tim, this read as if you were trying to make a safe and sound decision for what you are comfortable w/ and where you want to be (on track but not racing). I think any notion of too little horsepower is a total crock of S*** and you'd do right to follow your path. There are plenty of groups that do not condone that "floor it in the straights" big ego crap and if you find your local group puts up with it, doesn't mean you have to put up with them.

I have never seen a car that had too little horsepower for a DE, I haven't ever seen one w/ too much either.

38D

Adam - Which low horsepower car have you tracked and for how long?