Stan944

After the solo II school I've been practicing rotating the car by lifting off the throttle. I noticed that the car seems to do what I want when the engine is at high rpms in 1st gear, high rpms in 2nd gear, but doesn't want to rotate
when in low rpm in 2nd. I think it's because there is not enough engine braking power in low rpm in 2nd. So I probably need to add some brakes. Should I brake normally with the right foot, or try left-foot braking? Comments?

M758

Is this for autocross only?

You are right in that at lower rpms the car will not rotate like it does at higher rpms due to less engine braking effect. So to get the same rotation you will need to use some brake. Left or right foot depends on what you can use effectively.

Personally I only right foot brake. I have never gotten the feel for left foot to brake as precisly as the right. Any braking used to rotate the car in a corner must be done precisely to get the car to turn. In some cases left foot braking is better as you can use the brake and still apply power at the same time. So you can try either.

You can also try to lift more abruptly to induce a more vilolent input.

Remember smoother = faster, but that really applies to the chassis and partially to the driver. Sharp abrupt inputs in some cases can be quite useful to get the to respond smoothly.

One of the biggest differences between autocross and track is the a the track the speeds require soooth inputs. Autocross is so tight and narrow that you need to be much more sharp with abrupt with inputs since in general you have less speed and time to get the weight transfer you need to get the car do do what you want.

RedlineMan

Yeh...

What Joe said. If you are serious about auto-x, you need to learn left foot brake. As far as I'm concerned, it is indespensable. You won't get much rotation at low RPM. You will need to find another way to stand the car on its nose a bit and then crank the wheel to get the rear to come around.

I always cranked up my rear sway bar pretty tight. The trick is to be on the gas right until turn in, then chop the throttle shut, spike the brake, set the car on its nose, and crank the wheel. If you are using LFB, you can be ready to add throttle again when you have gotten the desired amount of rotation. Seamless!

Let'er swing around and then plant the gas, man! It's the only way to get'em to turn some times.

MJR911

well said John.

JCP911S

Unfortunately you are not going to get much throttle steer in a N/A 944. First, it doesn't have the power, and second it is a fundamentially very neutral car.

911s throttle steer because they fundimentally WANT to oversteer and you artifically stop them from rotating by stomping on the gas... like putting a dog on a leash... so lifting in a 911 is like letting go of the leash.... instant trail-throttle oversteer.

Powerful cars can also use trottle to induce steering simply because the HP overwhelms the capability of the chassis and tires...

If I overpower the front tires, I get power-induced understeer and the car pushes wide... then if I lift, the front hooks up and pulls the nose back in toward the apex... which feels like trailing trottle oversteer... but is really power understeer.

If I overpower the rear tires, they break loose and I get actual oversteer... the car rotates and then the rear hooks up when I lift (hopefully).

N/A 944 has alot more stick than power and probably gets 95% of the rotation from the steering wheel... maybe, right at the limit in faster turns, you might get some throttle steer effect, but I suspect it will be fairly mild.

RedlineMan

Au Contraire, Mon Ami;

If you set everything up like I said, you can swing'em like a barn door... or a butt-draggin 911 even! Power oversteer is another matter,of course, but not what you really want anyway, as it is not very precise or easily controlable, and coming out of it smoothly is not easy. Chop Thottle Oversteer is eminently doable!

Stan944

Thanks guys, this was helpful. I'll be trying to learn left foot braking. From my limited experience with throttle-lift-induced-rotation smooth application of the throttle upon exiting the turn seems to be critical in leaving the corner in the right direction. It's rather hard to me to do it smoothly with the right foot only.
The question was for both autox and track. I imagine on the track, in 3rd gear it would be hard to get the car rotating without applying some brakes?
I wasn't talking about high HP induced oversteering, but weight-transfer induced one. The former is on the agenda for the future. I don't know the correct terminology: seems like people call both kinds of oversteering 'throttle steering'...

M758

John is right on this one.

In fact I get plenty of throttle chop oversteer on my bone stock 83 944 NA. Heck I can get even so much rotation in an autocross course I can induce power oversteer with 120 or so whp. Of course getting oversteer on corner exit is problematic like John said.

You need to remember on thing about the 944. It does not have much power so corner exits are a mater of giving it gas and moving on. Where the 944 shines is on turn in and mid corner where a good driver can induce understeer and oversteer at will if they figure the inputs right.

Corner entry is also where 944 guys can smoke a 911. Most 911 drivers are too afraid to dance the back end of he car at turn in and this be slow. A fast 944 driver will dance the rear end of the 944 around at turn in and mid corner moderating the oversteer with combination of brake, gas, and steering wheel. The poor 911 driver will just be thing "brake in straight line" and "don't lift" as the 944 lifts, brakes and turns right around them.

Of course get a 944 trained driver in a 911 then you get pretty good speed the straights too.

M758

Easy on the track. If the revs drop below about 4000 simply drop to 2nd gear.

Really however on a track you have to manage that. There is one place I could drop to 2nd, but I leave it in thrid. My reason is two fold. On exiting the corner the car is much more stable and under control. The extra power of 2nd is nice, but make the corner less smooth than in 3rd. Also if in second I need to shift to 3rd before the end of that corner. Simply doing that corner in 3rd is best way for me to get around it fast overall even if it is a bit doggy right at the begining.

So for you on atrack you should try it both ways and see which is better as some times you want to upset the balance to make the car rotate and other times you need to keep it a bit more stable to be fast.

Larry Herman

JCP911S

I stand corrected... yes, if you set the car up to fundamentally oversteer, then you will get increased throttle steer effect... my point was that in a car that is set up to be neutral, throttle steer is going to be greatly reduced, and I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that a track 944 would typically be set up to be as neutral as possible.

RedlineMan

No surrender necessary JC;

You are correct that in stock form it is not as easy, even though it can still be accomplished with some moderately extreme tactics. And since we KNOW we have no HP, we NA drivers are usually ALWAYS refering to Chop Throttle Oversteer when we say "throttle steer." While minor variations in cornering attitude can be accomplished by adding throttle like with every other car, you won't see any tire smoking antics from we, the underpowered!

As I have progressed as a driver, I have set my car up to be increasingly more tail happy than stock. As they say, "Tight is Safe, Loose is Fast"