944S2 vs 944 Turbo (S)
07-08-2005, 11:43 PM
#16
Race Director
As a counter point an 8v 944 NA can be almost as fast as F cars if preped to a 944-spec type level.
The benefit is that the are much cheaper to run vs the S2 or 951. The down side is cars prepared like that are poorly classed in PCA club racing.
In general 951's can become expensive to mainting once you feel the poweredge and start working for more and more hp. Push 300 rwhp in racing 951 and it WILL be more expensive and maintence intensive than an S2. The S2 really can't get to 300 rwhp. This both a blessing and curse.
The benefit is that the are much cheaper to run vs the S2 or 951. The down side is cars prepared like that are poorly classed in PCA club racing.
In general 951's can become expensive to mainting once you feel the poweredge and start working for more and more hp. Push 300 rwhp in racing 951 and it WILL be more expensive and maintence intensive than an S2. The S2 really can't get to 300 rwhp. This both a blessing and curse.
07-11-2005, 02:50 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I have always heard that the 944 Turbos are more expensive to maintain than the other models. I have heard this from guys that dont know what they are talking about, all the way to 944 specialty shops. But in all honesty, from my experience with turbos and a 944S, I cant say for certain. My two 89 turbos have been great cars maintenance wise and both they have been driven hard as DE cars. But both cars were in very good condition when I bought them and were low to reasonable mileage. My 87T club race car has been a big pain in my ***. Never has been reliable and always something is failing on it. But it was abused and beat up and high mileage when I bought it and so I did not expect much else. The S has not been cheap to maintain either, but it has a ton of track miles on it and have had it since '92.
Really, everything on these cars (S2, Turbo, Turbo S, 968) is the same or similar with the only real difference the cost to maintain the 16v head versus the turbocharger and its associated plumbing and controls. If you stay in the stock powered/stock class with either the 220 or 250 bhp versions of the turbo, they are pretty reliable and dont blow headgaskets and burn holes in much (that happens much more with the chipped and modified cars).
In comparison to a 911 (E or F class), 944 cars are cheaper. A Euro SC, 3.2 Carrera, or 964 is going to cost significantly more in the initial purchase of the car and the setup (I would guess around a $10k difference on average). They may be a little more reliable, but that just speculation on my part. And I have heard of some horrible bills for 911 engine and trans rebuilds, so I have a hard time believing that a 911 is cheaper to run.
S2s are becoming more popular in F, they can run the 928S4 front calipers (M030 option) and can run 8.5 and 10" wide wheels so they can get 285/18s on back. The plain turbo is limited to the standard/smaller front calipers, can only run 8s and 9s, so you cant really get away with the 285/18s on the rear, and it has taller gearing than the S2. It does weigh a little less and may have slightly more top end power, but you cant find any acceleration difference except in 5th gear. And most of the S2s have changed their 5th gear to the shorter turbo set (cheaters!), so the turbo loses even that advantage.
Not sure what the 944-spec guys are allowed to modify, but PCA I class 944 n/a's are usually 5-8 seconds a lap slower than equal prepped F class S2s and Turbos at the tracks I have been to. You would have to get about 500-700 lbs out of them to equalize the power to weight ratios.
Really, everything on these cars (S2, Turbo, Turbo S, 968) is the same or similar with the only real difference the cost to maintain the 16v head versus the turbocharger and its associated plumbing and controls. If you stay in the stock powered/stock class with either the 220 or 250 bhp versions of the turbo, they are pretty reliable and dont blow headgaskets and burn holes in much (that happens much more with the chipped and modified cars).
In comparison to a 911 (E or F class), 944 cars are cheaper. A Euro SC, 3.2 Carrera, or 964 is going to cost significantly more in the initial purchase of the car and the setup (I would guess around a $10k difference on average). They may be a little more reliable, but that just speculation on my part. And I have heard of some horrible bills for 911 engine and trans rebuilds, so I have a hard time believing that a 911 is cheaper to run.
S2s are becoming more popular in F, they can run the 928S4 front calipers (M030 option) and can run 8.5 and 10" wide wheels so they can get 285/18s on back. The plain turbo is limited to the standard/smaller front calipers, can only run 8s and 9s, so you cant really get away with the 285/18s on the rear, and it has taller gearing than the S2. It does weigh a little less and may have slightly more top end power, but you cant find any acceleration difference except in 5th gear. And most of the S2s have changed their 5th gear to the shorter turbo set (cheaters!), so the turbo loses even that advantage.
Not sure what the 944-spec guys are allowed to modify, but PCA I class 944 n/a's are usually 5-8 seconds a lap slower than equal prepped F class S2s and Turbos at the tracks I have been to. You would have to get about 500-700 lbs out of them to equalize the power to weight ratios.
07-14-2005, 12:13 PM
#19
Race Director
Originally Posted by Oddjob
Not sure what the 944-spec guys are allowed to modify, but PCA I class 944 n/a's are usually 5-8 seconds a lap slower than equal prepped F class S2s and Turbos at the tracks I have been to. You would have to get about 500-700 lbs out of them to equalize the power to weight ratios.
07-14-2005, 01:01 PM
#20
Race Director
Regarding maintenance costs: I don't have experience with 951 costs, but I have first hand experience with 944S2 costs. IMHO, it's a wash between turbo-related expenses vs. 16-valve head expenses. IE: Maintenance is pretty much the same for both cars, given both are at or near stock form. Parts are also a bit harder to come by with the 944S2. Rarer parts that are more difficult to find usually means you need to pay more for them.
Last fall, my engine developed a cracked head. $5500.00 later, I'm back to square one. Besides that repair bill, I've probably put in over $20k into my car since 2001, when I bought it, and it's still mostly stock! (only upgrades: sway bars, seats & harnesses, rollbar, and track wheels/tires). Granted, it had/has a lot of mileage, but track driven cars will cost more to maintain due to the shortened maintenance windows.
With either the 951 or 944S2, there are things you have to watch and regularly maintain:
- Belts and seals (both motors are interfenence engines -- snap the timing belt, and you'll have some valves to replace. At ~ $95 a pop, valve costs can add up, especially on the motor that has 16 of them!
)
- A-arms - the aluminum A-arms need to be carefully looked at and inspected, espeically on a lowered car -- the suspension geometery on a lowered car puts more strain on the A-arm that can cause cracks and eventually lead to the ball-joint loosening and actually popping out of the A-arms. (I believe that's one of the reasons why in PCA club racing, they allow aftermarket A-arms for the 944 in stock classes) Also keep an eye on the caster blocks -- the original 951/944S2 units are nearing the end of their life -- the rubber bushing inside on most of them have probably dried out.
- Rod bearings - (more of a concern for the 951). Regular replacement of the rod bearings is essential, as well as keeping the oil levels and pressure up! I know of too many 951's (and some 944 n/a's) that have spun the #2 rod bearing at track events! Note: Installing an accusump system greatly helps prevent such problems.
- Clutch - the 944S2 came originally with a rubber centered clutch, while the 951 came with a spring centered unit. It is highly advisable to upgrade a 944S2 clutch to a spring centered type -- over time the rubber deteriorates and needs replacement. The spring centered unit it not without fault either -- the springs can fatigue and need replacement.
- Head gasket - the HG can give way, causing a wonderful mix of coolant and oil. Looks like milkshake, but it sure doesn't taste like it!
Not trying to scare you -- the 944 platform, IMHO, is a great car for track use. But keep in mind that these cars are getting a bit long in the teeth, and there are many examples out there for sale that aren't in the best condition. But they do have a relatively cheap purchase price, are a bit easier to maintain than a 911 (but the costs are similar), and with the 50/50 weight distribution, they can be made to handle very well with just a few tweaks to the suspension!
Just my $0.42,
-Z.
Last fall, my engine developed a cracked head. $5500.00 later, I'm back to square one. Besides that repair bill, I've probably put in over $20k into my car since 2001, when I bought it, and it's still mostly stock! (only upgrades: sway bars, seats & harnesses, rollbar, and track wheels/tires). Granted, it had/has a lot of mileage, but track driven cars will cost more to maintain due to the shortened maintenance windows.
With either the 951 or 944S2, there are things you have to watch and regularly maintain:
- Belts and seals (both motors are interfenence engines -- snap the timing belt, and you'll have some valves to replace. At ~ $95 a pop, valve costs can add up, especially on the motor that has 16 of them!
)- A-arms - the aluminum A-arms need to be carefully looked at and inspected, espeically on a lowered car -- the suspension geometery on a lowered car puts more strain on the A-arm that can cause cracks and eventually lead to the ball-joint loosening and actually popping out of the A-arms. (I believe that's one of the reasons why in PCA club racing, they allow aftermarket A-arms for the 944 in stock classes) Also keep an eye on the caster blocks -- the original 951/944S2 units are nearing the end of their life -- the rubber bushing inside on most of them have probably dried out.
- Rod bearings - (more of a concern for the 951). Regular replacement of the rod bearings is essential, as well as keeping the oil levels and pressure up! I know of too many 951's (and some 944 n/a's) that have spun the #2 rod bearing at track events! Note: Installing an accusump system greatly helps prevent such problems.
- Clutch - the 944S2 came originally with a rubber centered clutch, while the 951 came with a spring centered unit. It is highly advisable to upgrade a 944S2 clutch to a spring centered type -- over time the rubber deteriorates and needs replacement. The spring centered unit it not without fault either -- the springs can fatigue and need replacement.
- Head gasket - the HG can give way, causing a wonderful mix of coolant and oil. Looks like milkshake, but it sure doesn't taste like it!
Not trying to scare you -- the 944 platform, IMHO, is a great car for track use. But keep in mind that these cars are getting a bit long in the teeth, and there are many examples out there for sale that aren't in the best condition. But they do have a relatively cheap purchase price, are a bit easier to maintain than a 911 (but the costs are similar), and with the 50/50 weight distribution, they can be made to handle very well with just a few tweaks to the suspension!
Just my $0.42,
-Z.
