Making the 996TT a Supercar for Track?
06-21-2005, 06:49 PM
#16
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Or you could buy a used GT3 Cup and swap in a modded 996tt engine. You'd still need to play around with shock & springs, but the basics would all be there.
06-21-2005, 10:38 PM
#17
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Hey gang,
The 996TT makes a great track car once you get the car sorted, we're about 80% there. The car is somewhat competitive but after the next 10-15% it should hold it's own in GT1R.
Sebring best Q. Lap 2:11.8
Mid-Ohio best Q. Lap 1:33.? Long course(should be 29-30's)
Watkins Glen Did not race so we could do a little more work on the TT.
Putnam Park next race(Good track for working on setup)
My car weighs 2,880 w/o driver while still maintaining AWD. I've replaced the roof, doors, hood with CF after gutting the car. Full roll cage. All glass is now Lexan.
Suspension is Moton. Tuning is stage 3 Evolution Motorsports and is currently being raced on the 91 octane program even though we're using GT Plus unleaded 104.
I've been running Dunlop's and Pirelli's in tire sizes that are too small but fit with my current race wheels. Thanks to Dave Schardt at Wheel Source that will be changing this week. Wider wheels along with wider tires should help out a bit.
Brake Rotors and caliper's are stock, although I've ditched the ABS in favor of losing the PSM and going to a dual master cylinder setup. Pads are Pagid Black front and rear with bias adjusted with the cockpit adj. balance bar.
By the time you add up all the pieces you're 70+ K and still we're at 80%.
I now feel like I know what the car needs and will share more info if it works on the tight Putnam track.
I've got to tell you the project has been fun but expensive.
I don't mind sharing any info with others that are interested, after all that's how I reached the 80% so quickly. If you have specific questions, ask away.
Rick
#5 GT1R
The 996TT makes a great track car once you get the car sorted, we're about 80% there. The car is somewhat competitive but after the next 10-15% it should hold it's own in GT1R.
Sebring best Q. Lap 2:11.8
Mid-Ohio best Q. Lap 1:33.? Long course(should be 29-30's)
Watkins Glen Did not race so we could do a little more work on the TT.
Putnam Park next race(Good track for working on setup)
My car weighs 2,880 w/o driver while still maintaining AWD. I've replaced the roof, doors, hood with CF after gutting the car. Full roll cage. All glass is now Lexan.
Suspension is Moton. Tuning is stage 3 Evolution Motorsports and is currently being raced on the 91 octane program even though we're using GT Plus unleaded 104.
I've been running Dunlop's and Pirelli's in tire sizes that are too small but fit with my current race wheels. Thanks to Dave Schardt at Wheel Source that will be changing this week. Wider wheels along with wider tires should help out a bit.
Brake Rotors and caliper's are stock, although I've ditched the ABS in favor of losing the PSM and going to a dual master cylinder setup. Pads are Pagid Black front and rear with bias adjusted with the cockpit adj. balance bar.
By the time you add up all the pieces you're 70+ K and still we're at 80%.
I now feel like I know what the car needs and will share more info if it works on the tight Putnam track.
I've got to tell you the project has been fun but expensive.
I don't mind sharing any info with others that are interested, after all that's how I reached the 80% so quickly. If you have specific questions, ask away.
Rick
#5 GT1R
06-22-2005, 01:53 AM
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Gilhart
Great project
. I don't know these tracks so I don't know how fast those times are. Do you have any acceleration figures that would give an idea of what you have there? I don't mean quartermile times but rather 50-70, 60-130 or similar, although I understand that this is a track car, I am interested in hp/weight ratios, you must have a very fast setup.
When you say EVOMS stage 3, does that mean you used their bolt on package or did you open the case and reinforced? I was just wondering how you invested the $70K.
I have been the same route with my 993TT, changed the roof, Moton, lexan and the rest, and the only 3 questions that I have are:
(If you did) Why did you choose a bolt on package (EVOMS) for a car that will see serious track?
Aren't you experiencing heat issues in 20-25 minute races and above? GIAC are known to run high boost.
Have you done anything to the gearbox?
Thanks, great car!
Great project
. I don't know these tracks so I don't know how fast those times are. Do you have any acceleration figures that would give an idea of what you have there? I don't mean quartermile times but rather 50-70, 60-130 or similar, although I understand that this is a track car, I am interested in hp/weight ratios, you must have a very fast setup.When you say EVOMS stage 3, does that mean you used their bolt on package or did you open the case and reinforced? I was just wondering how you invested the $70K.
I have been the same route with my 993TT, changed the roof, Moton, lexan and the rest, and the only 3 questions that I have are:
(If you did) Why did you choose a bolt on package (EVOMS) for a car that will see serious track?
Aren't you experiencing heat issues in 20-25 minute races and above? GIAC are known to run high boost.
Have you done anything to the gearbox?
Thanks, great car!
06-22-2005, 03:35 AM
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There is a 996TT competing in the VLN series on the Nurburgring. In terms of speed, it's easily faster than the factory BMW M3GTRs. It's actually so successful that the VLN organisers have had to resort to specific rules on this particular car.
Team: http://www.juergen-alzen-motorsport.de
Engine builders: http://www.rs-tuning.de
Bodywork: http://www.dp-motorsport.de
Team: http://www.juergen-alzen-motorsport.de
Engine builders: http://www.rs-tuning.de
Bodywork: http://www.dp-motorsport.de
06-22-2005, 04:29 AM
#21
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Kees
This is a dream car built by probably the best tuner in the world. I think this answers the reason for my questions. In my opinion, a TT engine boosting at high pressure like an EVOMS stage 3 (beyond 1.1-1.2 Bar) cannot make it through a race (heat), if it does, it means it has not been pushed seriously. This Alzen engine has modifications that only a handful of tuners have even heard about, or so I heard.
The key is to run a highly efficient engine with excellent intercooling capabilities (996GT2 intercoolers won't cut it at all) in order to achieve around 600 hp with low boost pressure, and then you might have an engine that lasts for a couple of races.
This particular car is run below 1 Bar, with a highly efficient engine, and it still manages to have issues.
This is a dream car built by probably the best tuner in the world. I think this answers the reason for my questions. In my opinion, a TT engine boosting at high pressure like an EVOMS stage 3 (beyond 1.1-1.2 Bar) cannot make it through a race (heat), if it does, it means it has not been pushed seriously. This Alzen engine has modifications that only a handful of tuners have even heard about, or so I heard
.The key is to run a highly efficient engine with excellent intercooling capabilities (996GT2 intercoolers won't cut it at all) in order to achieve around 600 hp with low boost pressure, and then you might have an engine that lasts for a couple of races.
This particular car is run below 1 Bar, with a highly efficient engine, and it still manages to have issues.
06-22-2005, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jean
This particular car is run below 1 Bar, with a highly efficient engine, and it still manages to have issues.
However, as you mention, this particular car undergoes constant maintanence by a professional raceteam and it still needs to be nursed carefully. It seems to encounter cooling, lubrication and drivetrain issues almost every race. But when it's out there it's running in its own league way ahead of the rest of the field.
I seriously question if a similar setup would be suitable for a non-professional racer purely from a cash vs. enjoyment point of view. A GT3Cup would provide much more dependable performance. But I for one would certainly enjoy watching someone take on such a project.
06-22-2005, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Swedeboy
It's forced to run 0.9 bar by the organisers - last year 1.2 bar and before that it was boosting over 1.3 bar. And still it's beating everything. Standing along the trackside you simply can't believe how slow this car makes GT3RSR's seem.
.
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A bit OT, but if RS Tuning is having a hard time fighting heat to maintain a steady 600 hp performance in a state of the art engine, using unavailable components to other than a few racing houses, I think it is food for thought for some other "reliable" hp claims out there.
06-22-2005, 06:57 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by Jean
Interesting information. I thought they dropped because they were fighting heat, and protecting turbines...
A bit OT, but if RS Tuning is having a hard time fighting heat to maintain a steady 600 hp performance in a state of the art engine, using unavailable components to other than a few racing houses, I think it is food for thought for some other "reliable" hp claims out there.
A bit OT, but if RS Tuning is having a hard time fighting heat to maintain a steady 600 hp performance in a state of the art engine, using unavailable components to other than a few racing houses, I think it is food for thought for some other "reliable" hp claims out there.
06-22-2005, 10:25 AM
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Jean,
Great project . I don't know these tracks so I don't know how fast those times are. ( Wolf Henzler had a 2:09.9 in the same qualifying session in his WCGT P-car, this was the first shakedown race for us using stock bodywork/downforce)
Do you have any acceleration figures that would give an idea of what you have there? (I don't)
I don't mean quartermile times but rather 50-70, 60-130 or similar, although I understand that this is a track car, I am interested in hp/weight ratios, you must have a very fast setup. (2880 lbs./540 HP)
When you say EVOMS stage 3, does that mean you used their bolt on package or did you open the case and reinforced? I was just wondering how you invested the $70K. (Ecu flash, diverter valves, GT2 intercoolers,100 cell cat exhaust)
(The 70+K includes 2 sets of race wheels, larger turbo's, Motons/springs, Cf, fire suppression, Race seat/custom mounts, Lexan, cage, Air Jacks, Steering wheel, kill switches, window net, rear wing, front splitter, etc, etc. Plus labor costs to have all this custom work done).
(If you did) Why did you choose a bolt on package (EVOMS) for a car that will see serious track? (Because they were the most helpful and have helped another team in WCGT with engine prep w/o issues)
Aren't you experiencing heat issues in 20-25 minute races and above? GIAC are known to run high boost. (No heat issues)
Have you done anything to the gearbox? (stock)(upgraded clutch)
Please note this TT is nothing close to the TT that Swedeboy posted but rather taking a street car with average modifications and trying to be competitive in WCGT and PCA GT1R class. Again I believe when my car is 100% done it will be about 50-60% of what the VLN series TT is.
So far I've raced 3 races with the 1.1 bar of boost. Two PCA Sprint races and a 1 hour enduro. I will keep you posted on any reliability issues I have.
Hope this answers most of your questions,
Rick
Great project . I don't know these tracks so I don't know how fast those times are. ( Wolf Henzler had a 2:09.9 in the same qualifying session in his WCGT P-car, this was the first shakedown race for us using stock bodywork/downforce)
Do you have any acceleration figures that would give an idea of what you have there? (I don't)
I don't mean quartermile times but rather 50-70, 60-130 or similar, although I understand that this is a track car, I am interested in hp/weight ratios, you must have a very fast setup. (2880 lbs./540 HP)
When you say EVOMS stage 3, does that mean you used their bolt on package or did you open the case and reinforced? I was just wondering how you invested the $70K. (Ecu flash, diverter valves, GT2 intercoolers,100 cell cat exhaust)
(The 70+K includes 2 sets of race wheels, larger turbo's, Motons/springs, Cf, fire suppression, Race seat/custom mounts, Lexan, cage, Air Jacks, Steering wheel, kill switches, window net, rear wing, front splitter, etc, etc. Plus labor costs to have all this custom work done).
(If you did) Why did you choose a bolt on package (EVOMS) for a car that will see serious track? (Because they were the most helpful and have helped another team in WCGT with engine prep w/o issues)
Aren't you experiencing heat issues in 20-25 minute races and above? GIAC are known to run high boost. (No heat issues)
Have you done anything to the gearbox? (stock)(upgraded clutch)
Please note this TT is nothing close to the TT that Swedeboy posted but rather taking a street car with average modifications and trying to be competitive in WCGT and PCA GT1R class. Again I believe when my car is 100% done it will be about 50-60% of what the VLN series TT is.
So far I've raced 3 races with the 1.1 bar of boost. Two PCA Sprint races and a 1 hour enduro. I will keep you posted on any reliability issues I have.
Hope this answers most of your questions,
Rick
06-22-2005, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Swedeboy
I seriously question if a similar setup would be suitable for a non-professional racer purely from a cash vs. enjoyment point of view. A GT3Cup would provide much more dependable performance. But I for one would certainly enjoy watching someone take on such a project.
06-22-2005, 11:14 AM
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Rick,
Thanks for your answers. Those lap times are very impressive! A GT3 is no match to a well prepared lightweight TT with the right suspension setup and engine output. The TT will blow its doors on a one lap run, it is only on a longer race that forces will even out, when the TT performance drops by 100 hp due to heat.
I was not really asking about why EVOMs but rather whether a bolt on kit is the right option for a pure racing car. From what I know is that a stage 3 GIAC will see 1.2-1.3 bars with larger turbos unless you are running an EBC. It will be interesting to know what the intake temps are during the race.
Anders,you are absolutely right, but if you are running 1.2-1.3 bars of boost on a stock turbo 996TT engine during a race , you will start seeing leaks in the heads and the turbos will overheat intake temps in no time, dropping hp to much lower levels, and loosing performance. GT2 intercoolers won't cut it, the new RS Tuning developped Cargraphic "might".
I also agree that a GT3 CUP would be a much safer and economic way to go.
Sorry for the OT.
Thanks for your answers. Those lap times are very impressive! A GT3 is no match to a well prepared lightweight TT with the right suspension setup and engine output. The TT will blow its doors on a one lap run, it is only on a longer race that forces will even out, when the TT performance drops by 100 hp due to heat.
I was not really asking about why EVOMs but rather whether a bolt on kit is the right option for a pure racing car. From what I know is that a stage 3 GIAC will see 1.2-1.3 bars with larger turbos unless you are running an EBC. It will be interesting to know what the intake temps are during the race.
Anders,you are absolutely right, but if you are running 1.2-1.3 bars of boost on a stock turbo 996TT engine during a race , you will start seeing leaks in the heads and the turbos will overheat intake temps in no time, dropping hp to much lower levels, and loosing performance. GT2 intercoolers won't cut it, the new RS Tuning developped Cargraphic "might".
I also agree that a GT3 CUP would be a much safer and economic way to go.
Sorry for the OT.
06-22-2005, 11:48 AM
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Jean,
The reason for the ECU flash, K-24 turbo's and other minor mods is those are the only upgrades we're allowed to do in World Challenge GT competition.
Again I'm only at 1.1 bar of boost. If this car turns into just a PCA racer than engine internals will have to be changed.
On tight tracks I'm having problems putting the power down with the AWD(open diff). I would assume the other race TT's running in Europe are RWD with limited slips or locked rear ends.
Any info you could give me about specific performance parts for the TT would be helpful.
Thanks,
Rick
The reason for the ECU flash, K-24 turbo's and other minor mods is those are the only upgrades we're allowed to do in World Challenge GT competition.
Again I'm only at 1.1 bar of boost. If this car turns into just a PCA racer than engine internals will have to be changed.
On tight tracks I'm having problems putting the power down with the AWD(open diff). I would assume the other race TT's running in Europe are RWD with limited slips or locked rear ends.
Any info you could give me about specific performance parts for the TT would be helpful.
Thanks,
Rick
06-22-2005, 11:59 AM
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Rick,
Sorry, now I understand. I am no expert at all with the 996TT but I would strongly recommend that you look into the RS Tuning intercoolers. I believe they are made out of the French Secan cores, the only ones that will truly help you, these are the same that were used on the 993GT2 EVOs, highly efficient...and very expensive!
I would suggest you contact Konstantin, he should be able to help you out for sure with his contacts in Germany.
I do think that , if allowed by your regulations, your best bet would be to use a Guard LSD with 2WD setup, coming out of the corners you must be loosing substantial time with your current setup.
Sorry, now I understand. I am no expert at all with the 996TT but I would strongly recommend that you look into the RS Tuning intercoolers. I believe they are made out of the French Secan cores, the only ones that will truly help you, these are the same that were used on the 993GT2 EVOs, highly efficient...and very expensive!
I would suggest you contact Konstantin, he should be able to help you out for sure with his contacts in Germany.
I do think that , if allowed by your regulations, your best bet would be to use a Guard LSD with 2WD setup, coming out of the corners you must be loosing substantial time with your current setup.
06-22-2005, 12:08 PM
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Rick,
For this season, the Alzen 996TT has been reconverted back from 2WD to 4WD. For season 2005 it's using differentials from Drexler Motorsport - I suggest you give them a call for details. Additionally, Bosch have prepared custom engine electonics which include a custom motorsport traction control.
With regards to turbo pressure I must apologize - I previously quoted figures off the top of my head - after looking it up these weren't 100% accurate. For season 2005 the Alzen Porsche was mandated 0.95bar by the regulations. For season 2004 that was 1.1bar. Alzen themselves are claiming 600hp, but having seen the car in action I would say that's probably conservative to avoid incurring even more wrath from the organisers.
The weight of the car is publicly quoted by the team as 1350kg - of course there is no way of knowing how accurate this figure is.
Hope this helps. Please let me know if you require any additional information...it's projects like yours that deserve the full support from fellow enthousiasts.
Best regards, Kees
For this season, the Alzen 996TT has been reconverted back from 2WD to 4WD. For season 2005 it's using differentials from Drexler Motorsport - I suggest you give them a call for details. Additionally, Bosch have prepared custom engine electonics which include a custom motorsport traction control.
With regards to turbo pressure I must apologize - I previously quoted figures off the top of my head - after looking it up these weren't 100% accurate. For season 2005 the Alzen Porsche was mandated 0.95bar by the regulations. For season 2004 that was 1.1bar. Alzen themselves are claiming 600hp, but having seen the car in action I would say that's probably conservative to avoid incurring even more wrath from the organisers.
The weight of the car is publicly quoted by the team as 1350kg - of course there is no way of knowing how accurate this figure is.
Hope this helps. Please let me know if you require any additional information...it's projects like yours that deserve the full support from fellow enthousiasts.
Best regards, Kees