JCP911S

People have presented alot of reasonable solutions.... however, this presumes that all the parties WANTED to find a solution. Personally, I am becoming more and more pursuaded that they were spoiling for a fight, and found an excuse.

To me the arguement that introducing a chicane was somehow "unfair" to some of the teams is BS... everybody has to drive through it, eveybody is presented with the same timeframes and required to deal with exactly the same circumstance.... and to imply that F1 teams and drivers are unable to respond to a situation that the average autocrosser faces every day is of course ludicrous.

If the bottom line goal of all the parties was to put on a good race, the chicane option (for one) would certainly have done that... so it is clear to me that the parties had other agendas... and the fans were not on them.

P.Po

JCP911S wrote: "The true character of any person or group really comes out when times are tough, and what I saw Sunday was an organizational meltdown"

Well said!!

-Patrick

M758

Where do you put the chicane? My guess is on oval track portion just before turn 13 (ie short chute between 1 & 2). the track has a gentle banking there. Seems to me that a banked chicane especially one were curb hopping might occur would result in changes to the set-up.

Turn 1 and 2 of that track are proper turns not like the chicanes in Monza, Imola and others. The car tend to run up on the inside of turn 1 a bit, but not on the exit. That is the only place at INDY were the car use the curbs at all. Now add in spot where the cars potential will be bouncing off curbs. Well now you need to change spring and damper rates not to mention how will the tire react to this? Remembe that tires are large part of the suspension tunign. I am not saying they could not had negoiated a chicane, but it certianly not safe without giving the teams time to test in that configuration and make the proper changes. Also why potential penalize bridgestone? If the situation were reversed and bridgestones had problems and Ferrari wanted a chicane added would the reaction be any different. The FIA should still have said no to chicane especially with no practice.

kurt M

I disagree. The Bridgestone teams came to the race with the right but slower “shoes” for the race and the Michelin teams did not. If I showed up to a mountain endurance running race wearing sprinters track skins and everyone else was shod in proper but heavy hiking boots it would be patently unfair for me to say we need to run on a padded banked indoor track instead. The Michelins were not poor design, they were too light weight and aggressive for the track. That is too "competitive" or fast for the conditions. To change the track would only play into the advantage of the tire that was not correct for the known layout. The Michelins were faster other then when they failed from too much heat/load in T13. Yes, all would go through the chicane but the Michelins would have an advantage in doing so.

I also think that changing the track layout was a obfuscating and moot point right from the start andf the principals knew it too. i think that the teams and Michelin knew that it is a well documented major rules violation and that FIA would not allow it regardless of who voted for it or not. It was never up to any vote. I say we all take a vote on this thread to end car taxes! Lotta good that will do, we don’t have any say and neither did the tire makers, teams or Bernie. On the other hand it did draw the attention away from the tires themselves and why there were in question.

Sorry folks. People or groups that run from owning up to self induced F ups make me real mad. Suck it up, learn something and git on with it.

JCP911S

The irony here is that especially after the Senna accident, F1 put so many chicanes on the tracks that they turned into glorified A/X courses... suddenly chicanes are "dangerous". Certainly, if the chicane had been there all along, the teams would have set their optimum suspension slightly different, but I have to believe that an F1 driver would have the new line down cold in about 3 laps.

Bridgestone isn't really "penalized"... they are running exactly the same course... (but they do have a gripe that their competitor is getting accommodations that they would not get)... but I could argue that if they were successful enough to get 88% of the competitive teams to run Bridgestones, they would get the chicane... so it is their "fault" (just kidding)

People bring up the example that if the Bridgestones had the same problem, nobody would be talking about a Chicane... but the fact is you would still have a really good race without the Bridgestone teams... without the Michelin teams, you have a disaster... a totally different situation...the F1 folks are clearly willing to accept a disaster as long as they have a finger to point at somebody else....

mamoroso

If a chicane had been put there the M-teams would have waived their points. The B-shod teams would have reaped all the points of the 1st 6 places if they had finished the race.

The unfair advantage is BS. Let me tell you again... the Michelin shod teams agreed to NOT to be awarded the points. It was going to be done just to save the show.

ColorChange

Wow Kurt, you and I are in huge agreement.

#1 Michelin was incompetent.
#2 Michelin tried to confuse and obfuscate by saying put in a chicane ...
#3 The teams could have raced with frequent tire changes/inspections, enforced speed limits, etc.

Here is where it gets interesting.

#4. The teams chose not to race IMO to stick it to the FIA and as a "shot across their bow" to increase their barganing leverage in light of a new Concorde agreement (or a full fledged breakaway series)

M758

Really is quite dangerious to change a track with no time for testing or an opprotunity to change the set-up of a car.

For use club racers it takes only a couple laps to adjust to a change. From driver's perspective a few laps and you can get through it safely.

From a car perspective it depends on how "set-up" the car is. All F1 cars tweaked to the edge of lives just to make it around a certain track as fast as possible. Change that track and not only is the car no longer optimized for it, but since the car run in such an optimized configuration something as simple as adding an added left corner can impact tire wear, suspension loading, fuel usage, etc.

Some form of testing would need to be carried out before attempting to race if ANY track changes are made. It is really the only safe and prudnet thing to do.

However lets get back to what really happend.

FIA did not want to make certain concessions, Tthe teams & Michelin did not want to make certain concessions. The result was no fair solution with Fans taking it in the shorts. Any number of soltions (or combinations of them) could be found if a solution was really desired.

Dan Gallagher

I was there, not in the stands but in Ferrari’s garages with the team, drivers and bosses and before the race started, just before I headed to higher ground to watch the start, I was told that the other teams want to change the track and Ferrari would be the ones to not run. (And rightly so since they in all fairness managed to bring equipment suitable for the event as planned). The sanctioning body decided the outcome of that situation and the other teams decided not to run a race according to the rules, none of this has anything to do with Ferrari (a team who came properly prepared for competition) having class.

NEVER MIND ALL THIS CRAP...

WHAT REALLY MAKES ME MAD ABOUT THIS WEEKEND is that people would throw things on track at drivers or attack / intimidate team members and guests. I personally almost got pegged by a full beer can when I was at the podium after the race, that is low class.

Have you ever had that many angry people chanting things at you? Throwing bottles at you? Then been told one of the teams already had a problem getting out of the track and the "extra police" who were brought in only suggested to me that we would want to hide our team apparel and credentials before leaving. (I parked my car outside in one of the neighborhoods because we arrived late and didn’t get a parking pass for the infield)


By the way, I know nothing of f1 history and I was just there to watch a race so these are just my observations.

JCP911S

Can't disagree with any of the points made here.... the key to me is this is a situation that called for compromise, and in any compromise, most or all parties have to swallow something...

What jumps out at me is that, given some seemingly reasonable compromises,that most of the folks on this board (who are probably pretty typical F1 fans) would have been willing to accept, or at least give an "F" for F-ert, F1 was unable (for whtever reason) to reach any compromise, and screwed 160K spectators and tens of millions of TV viewers, sponsors, etc that pay the bills.

sjanes

Exactly. This isn't about tires, or safety or "the show", or (unfortunatly) the fans. It's about politics and money. The only "show" the M-teams were interested in putting on was the mass pull out into pit lane just before the "race".

Let the games begin...

wombat7

The saddest thing about this whole situation is that now the future of F1 at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is now in jeopardy. That leaves all of the American F1 fans without a reasonably close race to go to. We all can debate whose fault it was, whether it was a politcal thing and the M-shod teams just wanted to screw the FIA, or whether Ferrari was just being the bullies that they seem to be, but that is not going to change the fact that now the sport that we all love may not be coming to American soil next year. The people at IMS are now saying that they do not want to put on an event that they 'don't have control of.'

Now on the lines of engine replacement, I read somewhere that the formation lap is techincally the green flag lap. Which would mean that all the M-shod teams 'started the race.' If this is true, then they all will most definately be able to run new engines in France which gives them a huge advantage since the USGP is so hard on engines due to all the WOT time.

Premier Motorsp

Colorchange said:

you NEVER do something to harm the good for the wrong doings of the bad or incompetent (this is clasic liberalism - the primary source of evil in the world).

Goddam what a beautiful sentence. I am tearing up.

Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports

ColorChange

Chris, thanks bud. We definitely need to get together some time. I'd like you in the right seat if you enjoy risk. And I'll try to trade so DAS analysis for the favor.

When are you at the local tracks?