Claus Groth

Following is my e-mail about belt slippage to Hans Device and their reply:

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Subject: RE: Contact Form, 1/27/05
From: "Gary Milgrom" gmilgrom@hansdevice.com

Claus Groth bora450@intergate.com wrote:
<< I recently acquired #5491, Model 650 Hans Device. I do not see this model on your website. How old is it? >>

<< I am 6'-4" tall and have a cam-lock harness. The 3" belts fit close over the shoulder but are half-way off of the outside at the lower edge of the front braces. The front braces angle inward more than the belts, possibly due to my length. I think that a shorter person would not have this problem. >>

<< When I push forward hard several times in a row, one belt sometimes slips outward enough that it slips off of the shoulder. >>

<< I connected the right shoulder belt into the left cam-lock socket and the left belt into the right one. This solved the problem and held the brace perfectly. I presume that a sternum strap should also correct this. What advise do you have? >>
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Sternum strap should solve your problem.

RedlineMan

Hey All;

One thing you have to be very careful about is looking at a photo and not seeing all that is there. I can't really make out much of anything in that photo to be honest with you. I can see the belts quite offset from their normal position, and some black blob outlined in white which looks nothing like a HANS yoke... but must be?

What I don't see clearly at all is what kind of seat is used. Many of these sled seats have NO side bolstering whatsoever. Some have no head halos, I don't see any shoulder wings on this seat at all on the right side. I think I see one on the left side, against the cage? Without seeing what is really there in terms of a total system, I'm less than sure this pic tells me anything useful at all. Deriving realisitic impressions thus becomes problematic.

In regard to what Claus offered, it is my impression that HANS has taken a rather hands-off approach to fettling its customer's setups. I have not gotten the impression that they were particularly proactive or effusive in disseminating information to help their customers properly utilize their product.

There are two schools of thought regarding liability. One - What you say you will be help liable for. Two - What you DON'T say you will be held liable for. HANS seems to have taken the former. Gregg Baker, the latter. The former makes you seem dissinterested. That latter, enthusiastic.

Claus, your solution is interesting. HANS' reply is also, but for the opposite reason. Sternum straps - which I used to champion - are NOT really a good idea. Why would you "suggest" a bad idea to solve a customer problem?

Swedeboy

A company's customer service or concept should not be judged on the basis of one email. From what I understand HANS is currently swamped with sales and customer service therefore stretched.

Try contacting Stand 21 to see how they can help you.

ltc

From an engineering perspective, I do not believe that SFI38.1 certification would improve/alter the efficiency of the ISAAC device.
I would be totally comfortable using the non SFI38.1 ISAAC, as I believe I understand the operation of the device in most of its expected modes.

If I were a racer (and not a DE hack) then perhaps the sanctioning body, for whatever reason, would require SFI38.1. In that case you have fewer options; currently HANS or R3.

Having been involved in product design, development and qualificaiton to military and commercial standards, I am NOT impressed with SFI38.1 at all.
The simple fact that you do NOT have to submit ALL test data, simply passing ones, seems incredible.
You simply have to accept the reality of standards, specifications and sanctioning bodies that there ARE political/financial/business motivations behind some decisions and exclusions, not always technical ones.

I am currently involved with Snell certification regarding kart rib protectors (my 12 year old son races 80cc karts). There are similar issues to what we have been discussing.

I also concur with the comments and observations regarding ISAAC and SFI38.1 certification by Mr Gregg Baker:
http://www.isaacdirect.com/SFI.html

Your decision regarding H&N restraints will NOT affect any of your fellow drivers, so why then would it matter to anyone but yourself?

fatbillybob

I agreed with John 100%. These same questions with HANS keep coming up. One would think the company would address them. If they did then we may find the HANS to not have the universal application that they want but everyone employs because all the big boys use them. As to sternum straps lots of bodies outlaw them. And to DJF1's description that is why Scroth came up with the 4 shoulder belt design for the HANS. It only adds $625.00 to your safety system ;-

DJF1

Who said that it matters? we are having a discussion no? Discussions lead to informed decisions. Through each other's experiences we all learn and in this case the recent discussions made me make a decision not to buy HANS. So the decisions that others made and the reasoning, in my view is very helpfull to all! Why would you have a problem with that?

Lastly to your other remark, its not that I do nto trust ISAAC and the certification issue as my confirmation of what the system worths. In case you missed it i'm a PCA club racer therefore I anticipate shortly regulations mandating a head restraint system. Therefore I would like and I assume other racers, to have the option of having the ISAAC included in the short list of equipment that will be approved.

ltc

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear.
My point was that if I chose a particular safety solution that a particular sanctioning body doesn't approve of, the consequences of that decision will only affect me, not a fellow driver.
It's not like I decide to run plastic rims, which may break, sending my car out of control and into an innocent driver.
I probably oversimplify my view of a safety device being a personal safety device.

I didn't know you were a racer or that you were anticipating regulations which may restrict your options. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

RedlineMan

No intelligent person would do that. So what's your point? I see a "possible" pattern. That e-mail adds to it. My opinion.

Professor Helmüt Tester

A lot of 'theorizing' going on here, so I'll just chime in with some real-world experience.

I've been an HANS user for well over 4 years, always with 3" shoulder belts. I have had several (several = more than two) occasions to crash test the HANS, including one crash with 3 offset hits at V.I.R. (2 right sides, one left side), hard enough to tear off suspension components (knuckles, struts, etc.). , along with an offset crash at WGI that involved removing the entire right front suspension & right side nose of the car, right back to the crush-box. Seats in use were Kirkey/Butler/etc. aluminum, more similar to a stock-roadrace seat than a 'laydown' formula seating position.

The belts stayed where they belonged.

Swedeboy

My point was that your response seemed biased based on the limited amount of information you offer to support your opinion. My opinion. What's unclear about that.

The (albeit small) images on page 6 of the HANS owner manual seem pretty clear regarding the routing of the shoulder belts. It's difficult to envision shoulder belts slipping from the yokes of the HANS device if those measurements are adhered to and the belts are tight.

RedlineMan

Not to turn this into a pissing match, Swedeboy;

And to be as politically correct as I can totally utterly possibly manage after a few pints... unless you were a fly on the wall during MY PERSONAL conversations DIRECTLY with HANS, what the Hell do you know? How would YOU know that my experiences dealing DIRECTLY with HANS to get MY PERSONAL setup as good as it could be were less than inspiring to someone who takes this $hit seriously and earnestly sought the advice of people who I'd thought would be as enthusiastic about their products as I am about mine?

I happen to OWN a HANS. I happen to BUILD cars nut by bolt, setup safety systems for many people I cherish, and study this topic intently on EVERYONE'S behalf. I've posted once or twice on these very subjects previously.

I can only assume you are new to this forum. We'll give you all the time you need to catch up. No.. it's OK... really!

I tried my best...

And leave it to the Sage Professor to ring the bell of truth right on cue. I love you, man!

fatbillybob

Professor that's what I like to hear! I'm glad my full containment seat and fancy belts are overkill. I'm the kind of guy who "fishes with dynamite" and kills a mosquito with a baseball bat.

DJF1, read your rules carefully. All kinds of things may or may not be legal like HN restraints using more than a single release, sternum straps, 2" lap belts, dual shoulder straps, fuel cells, welding your cage to the A B pillers etc... all in the name of "Safety".

Swedeboy

My apologies - I didn't realize that being new to this forum precluded being allowed to voice an opinion.

You're right - I don't know. Sorry to hear about your experiences directly with HANS. My experience is that they are very enthousiastic about their product, but swamped with orders. If they don't have the bandwidth to deal with direct customer enquiries, the Scroth or Stand 21 distributors might be a good alternative.

I have a variety of HANS devices littering my living room as we speak.

Regarding HANS I've been lucky enough to attend multiple day training courses and have lengthy discussions in person with medical and technical people responsible for design of the HANS setup and configuration for the European market. Amongst others specialists who have personally setup some of the top European motorsport teams. They've had access to a variety of very heavy real-life crashes with drivers using the HANS device and have a ream of practical fitment experience.

Now let's move on to the interesting stuff...


For HANS proper installation of the belts is a must.

During installation and fitment precisely the belt issues described here have been encountered even by some of the top drivers and teams. Pretty much all of those issues were resolved purely by working on installation and fitment of the belts. There is no reason why this shouldn't work for non-professional drivers with commitment to proper installation of their safety equipment.

To obtain the optimal belt configuration it may prove necessary to relocate the chassis mounting points for the belts. Replacement of the seat may be required in a small number of cases as the holes for the shoulder belts are too high or too low in the seat back to enable correct belt installation. None of this is unique to the HANS device. Rather incorrect belt fitment - which in a conventional setup isn't an issue until a heavy crash - is magnified when using HANS. This initial incorrect belt fitment becomes apparent to the wearer when they encounter slippage of the HANS device during regular use.

The documentation on the HANS website provides all the information required to enable a proper installation. However, in my opinion to ensure the benefits of HANS are maximized, the driver should work with an experienced installer to ensure correct fitment of the HANS device and resolve other belt fitment issues. Ideally this is done in-situ at the race car as the HANS device is an integral part of the safety equipment - not an add-on. However where this is not a practical option photos may be helpful to enable long-distance assistance.

Initial fitment of the HANS device may require some commitment by the wearer, but then again that applies to the correct application of most safety equipment in motorsport.

RedlineMan

Swede;

Well, this is rather tedious, isn't it?

Explaining personal experiences was what was being done. Claus posted a verbatim exchange that I find rather lacking in not only understanding of safety systems, but in engagement and interest. That somewhat parallels my experiences with HANS, and therefore I voiced the thought that a pattern seemed to be developing. This is NOT a new point of discussion in these forum.

Then you chimed in and offered your judgement. Your judgement - as stated in your words above - was based on a false premise; that one e-mail was the basis for my second-hand assumption. Working from such a judgement is not only unsound in execution, but does not follow logically. You made a leap to precipice of your own creation that was not there.

My reference to your being new here had nothing to do with trying to stifle anyone's opinion. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone's. Whether it is worth anything is another matter entirely. By your explanation, it would seem that your fairly vast inside experience with HANS would be quite valuable to us all. That would be fine if you had confined your post to that.

However, you made a VALUE JUDGEMENT of the people here based on an assumption. If you had spent any time here - which it seemed aparent to me that you had not - it was my assumption that you would have seen in the many threads on these subjects that their are not many people here that talk out of hand or make spurious statements or accusations.

This is a very reasoned and passionate group here. Some of us have gotten a less than warm and fuzzy feeling from our dealings with Hubbard-Downing. Relative to the matter at hand - our personal safety - and then in relation to what Gregg Baker of Isaac has offered us here, that is dissappointing.

That is our experience, not an opinion.

You are among friends here, I think, and I welcome your knowledge and expertise. Now, if everyone would let me alone on my Saturday... I'd get to finish reading your note and maybe learn something new!!

Swedeboy

That's certainly a welcome note. I've been spending too much time in the Off-Topic forum which certainly has set me on the wrong foot. My apologies for the slight over-reaction.

If possible I certainly hope to contribute something useful. I don't ascertain to know everything, but on the front of HANS I hope to offer some insight and/or access to valuable resources.